Rework Penals

That's not how it works.
That's not how any of it works.

How will you account panzerfaust, rifle nade, bunker building?
How will you account different rec acc?
How will you account weapon upgrades?

You're just comparing numbers that are meaningless and you don't even compare units of the same or even similar weapon profiles.

You see only what you want to see.

Same for you, how did you count the ability to kill a OKW base for 135mun?
How do you Count the ability do kill a 150 mp and 60mun object with only 45mun?

And do you really know what that numbers are saying? Penals are allways more effective than a Grenadier until it gets it upgrade, and then it is only better on range 30. That is one tech and 60mun for one unit.

And the small saying about seeing. Are you blind?



Edit: Maybe you don't get it right.

I give you an example what that numbers are saying. If Grens would be as effective as a Penal squad, it would cost ~190mp, less as Osttruppen. Sure, you can't count that exactly, because of smaller target sice, but if you now compare them with Osttruppen, even they arn't cost-effective anymore.


Edit: And that is why I want to balance Penals and buff the rest of Soviets stuff instead. They are broken.

So, if you give them a normal AI upgrade later, we can nerf them for the start.

And also the explosive is ways too strong for 45mun. It should destroy a Bunker, 6 should take out a okw base and one it shouldn't take out map-structures that easy.

Same for you, how did you count the ability to kill a OKW base for 135mun?

Why did you protected it?
Why did you put it so far forward?
What did you expected will happen if you let almost 1000 menpower worth of demolition squads walk up to it?

How do you Count the ability do kill a 150 mp and 60mun object with only 45mun?

Building demolition ability, which is made specifically to do that.

And I am very glad you have focused on it(as I really had hoped for), because that is NOT utility that is supposed or even usable vs anything that can move, contrary to rifle nade, which is there for you to use.

And do you really know what that numbers are saying? Penals are allways more effective than a Grenadier until it gets it upgrade, and then it is only better on range 30. That is one tech and 60mun for one unit.

Yes, exactly how its supposed to be.
Grens are long range cheap mainline infantry with additional AT and AI utilities they start with.
Penals are AI specialist that got decent DPS at all ranges.
And yes, if you want to have CHEAP squad compete against EXPENSIVE squad that is supposed to COUNTER that cheap squad, then you will need to invest more into that CHEAP squad.
That literally is how balance works, that is the very dictionary definition of balancing units.
Cheap units lose to expensive units unless you upgrade them or get more of them.
That's how it is since RTS ganre exist and its utterly amusing how much you struggle with comprehending that old as time fact.

I give you an example what that numbers are saying. If Grens would be as effective as a Penal squad, it would cost ~190mp, less as Osttruppen. Sure, you can't count that exactly, because of smaller target sice, but if you now compare them with Osttruppen, even they arn't cost-effective anymore.


Edit: And that is why I want to balance Penals and buff the rest of Soviets stuff instead. They are broken.

Again, that's not how it works, its something you have made in your mind, sunk your teeth into it and won't let it go.

Go find me a SINGULAR player who is actually GOOD at this game to agree with you.

Penals are fine.
Its -you personally- who have problems, because you do not have enough skill at the game to employ enough micro and correct unit composition to counter them, you know, something that for example HelpingHans or VonIvan do not have problems against.

The only balance issue here is between your chair and keyboard.

You're looking exclusively at 1 squad vs q squad for some mad reason, while soviet going penals will ALWAYS be outnumbered by 1-2 squads.

Take of your bhudda box and get a grip on reality.
Go watch streams, go watch replays and learn the game.

One quick question for the people who think Penals are OP and a no-brainer for Soviets.

Why did we rarely see them in GCS 2 and in only about 50% of Soviet games in AC 2v2?

Wanna know the answer? Because they are not OP. It´s a L2P issue if you don´t know how to counter Penals.

You simply don't get it? Penals arn't not cheap, that is what the numbers say, and that is why on 3vs3 and 4vs4 penal-blobbs as standard. You allways want numbers, if you get some you still are hating. It that is your desire, please, leaf the forum an play Pokemone Go etc.

Penals will not be outnumberd if they get more per mp. That is the effect more dps per mp has.


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One quick question for the people who think Penals are OP and a no-brainer for Soviets.

Why did we rarely see them in GCS 2 and in only about 50% of Soviet games in AC 2v2?

Wanna know the answer? Because they are not OP. It´s a L2P issue if you don´t know how to counter Penals.

Because their game mechanic changes in larger team games. That is why. And soviets are balanced for 1vs1 and 2vs2. And if penals get a nerf, we can buff the rest to a normal level. It is like old Volks-Blobbs with Schreck, they destroyed the multiplayer.

In 1vs1 they are ok, I often said that.

There wont be balance patches that take perfectly fine 1v1 and 2v2 units and change them in order to suit 3v3 and 4v4. It just won´t happen.

Apart from that, Penals are still not OP in 3v3 and 4v4. When I play these game modes I usually don´t even see them being used in large numbers. I have no idea what the real problem is here. Just show us a replay of you losing against Soviet T1 builds so we can give you help.

that is why on 3vs3 and 4vs4 penal-blobbs as standard

No, in 3v3 and 4v4 99% of players are UTTER NOOBS.
Literally the very worst players in the entire game stick and play this game mode.

You can spam Kubels and win games against 3v3 and 4v4 players, because their skill level is trash.

Go check steam forums, where they can't hide their player cards, each and EVERY single "balance" thread is from rank 3000+ 3v3 or 4v4 RT players that exclusively play one faction, THAT is where your kind is, that is where you will find players who will support your case, because that is a nest of noobs.

Exclusively most notorius axis fanboys here say there is something wrong with penals.

You want to counter blobs?
Then use blob counters, you know, like a pair of HMG42, there, all penal blobs you have so much problems with are pinned and dead now, free 500 ranks for you, you're welcome and thank me later for this super op unbeatable fool proof anti noob blob strat, 500 more and you might get to rank 2000.

No, in 3v3 and 4v4 99% of players are UTTER NOOBS.
Literally the very worst players in the entire game stick and play this game mode.

You can spam Kubels and win games against 3v3 and 4v4 players, because their skill level is trash.

Go check steam forums, where they can't hide their player cards, each and EVERY single "balance" thread is from rank 3000+ 3v3 or 4v4 RT players that exclusively play one faction, THAT is where your kind is, that is where you will find players who will support your case, because that is a nest of noobs.

Exclusively most notorius axis fanboys here say there is something wrong with penals.

Saying you have no friends? No trolling, real question.


This game has this game modes, so balance them. And nerfing penals, to upgrade their performcane instead, will not kill their 1vs1 performance.

Saying you have no friends? No trolling, real question.

Oh you'd be so very surprised.

And let me now ask a question in return:
Show Spoiler

I don't see any problem with penals in 1v1. Doubt if it is possible to make balance work for all types of game.

Rank 57 in 4vs4 team as Ostheer and 163 in 3vs3.

As Soviet I play versus my own team if we are too many. Saying, I have friends. Games has to be funny.

I don't see any problem with penals in 1v1. Doubt if it is possible to make balance work for all types of game.

And yes, it is possible.

Buff Maxim, reduce/lower side-costs for Cons, reduce price of Penals and nerf them to normal stats + upgrades to for mid and late-game.

Rank 57 in 4vs4 team as Ostheer and 163 in 3vs3.

As Soviet I play versus my own team if we are too many. Saying, I have friends.

You realize that 3v3 and 4v4 AT ladders are completly meaningless outside maybe the first few spots?

You realize that 3v3 and 4v4 AT ladders are completly meaningless outside maybe the first few spots?

And you realize that the hole penal balance Question is for larger multiplayer? Remove 3vs3 and 4vs4 and there and look how the game will die.

I know im not popular because of what im about to say, but teamgames (3v3;4v4) require coordination more than balance. If two players join to push it should be neccesary other two players stoping that said push. Thats the problem with this topic also, penals have high offensive power, mixed with great blob sinergy (what i mean, they boost themselves killing faster). HMGs will counter them but as i said in another topic, will not kill the blob, and thus they will strike again in other place.
The problem itself is a combination of big offensive power and the classic blob issue

Most expensive mainline infantry in game, more expensive then some elite call-in infantry... "relatively cheap"

Too good abilities?
They have explosive that is effective against targets that can't move.
When upgraded, they have sticky that is only a defensive tool to deter pushing due to worst AT weapon in game that is incapable of burst damage.

You really are pushing your narrative about dead meta from 2 years ago somehow still being effective.

They are cheap, compared to sturmpioniers.

They're better in every way. I'd rather have Volks with sweepers and Sturmpionier as combat infantry.

How will you account for the fact that penals DO arrive LATER then grens and grens will always outnumber them?

I'd like to see this new 10 gren squad meta that you're talking about.

By mid game, grens are usually outnumbered by penals.

4x4gren = 16 gren models.
Doctrinally - 4x5 gren models = 20 gren models.
4x6 penal models = 24 penal models.

Penals are too efficient for their price, but I never felt I have problem countering them.

The reason is most Sov players only build T1 or T2, so they can rush for T-70. As a OKW player, every time I see penals, I will build AA HF to counter them.

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If we need to nerf penals, I think we need to redesign Sov's tech tree at the same time.

T1 play is actually at its weakest in big games due to the prevalence of the mg42 and the narrow fighting ways.... if you are playing 4v4s and having problems vs penals then you lack mg42s...

As for 1v1s the best decision as ost is to build an mg42 and 3x grens as screens... this actually counters penals well and efficiently as the mg42 can pin a penal squad instantly negating 33% of their firepower....
Remember penals trade a weapon upgrade and field presence for their individual power... use your advantages wisely as ost and you will find beating penals easy....

As for okw it depends... my usual tactic is to try to field the mg34 and flak ht as fast as i can... its gonna be a rough earlygame especially against the m3 soo just ride the wave until you get the flak ht and the mg34... also watch out for ptrs penals in m3s they can ko your HT if underestimated