OKW's 221 is too weak for its 20 fuel cost

Penals with ptrs and Sniper.

There arn't many units ingame working so good together. What can you do? Is there are real counter beside counter-sniper, multiple P4 or Panzerwerfer?

They are unbalanced as Volks with Schrecks, if they would have access to destroy every building and emplacement with a 45mun ability.

T2 would be even more useless without the ZIS AT gun doe..

Sniper without Penals, so an unit like 221 is able to counter a sniper if soviet doesn't want to build T1 for AT or doesn't tech AT-grenades for Cons. A punishment if you ignor the commander and still want to tech directly T70. That is the risc sovits need.

Penal&ptrs + Sniper + T70 simply works too good.

Sniper without Penals, so an unit like 221 is able to counter a sniper if soviet doesn't want to build T1 for AT or doesn't tech AT-grenades for Cons. A punishment if you ignor the commander and still want to tech directly T70. That is the risc sovits need.

Penal&ptrs + Sniper + T70 simply works too good.

actually T2 is already super shit as it is... doing this would mean soviet T2 would be completely unplayable...

actually T2 is already super shit as it is... doing this would mean soviet T2 would be completely unplayable...

Because why? Because you have to build Cons and tech AT-grenades?


Penals have to be pushed out of normal early-game. They are specialists, no line-infantry.

Because why? Because you have to build Cons and tech AT-grenades?


Penals have to be pushed out of normal early-game. They are specialists, no line-infantry.

I absolutely adore how ignorant you can be, given how you completely ignore why T1 was given AT due to being incapable of defending against any kind of armor and you, in your ignorance, want to do exactly the same thing with T2.

See people, this is how you spot people who know the faction exclusively from opposing side, being blisfully unaware how it functions.

Do you want to see guards in every single game?
Because that's how you get guards in every single game.

Because why? Because you have to build Cons and tech AT-grenades?


Penals have to be pushed out of normal early-game. They are specialists, no line-infantry.

thats a long discussion but a short way of putting it is

1. conscripts suck without doctrines

2. even with AT nades sov will be helpless vs the halftrack the 221 and the luchs

3. the maxim sucks

4. T2 generally sucks to the point its unused without the PPSH doc...

5. i actually do agree on nerfing penals giving them volks mosins for 260mp with an optional techup to DPs for lategame scaling at the least... this means penals wont be oppressive kill everything SVT deathblobs and even in the lategame they have to stop to shoot

Do you want to see guards in every single game?
Because that's how you get guards in every single game.

Because why? Because you have to build T1 if you sniper wants immunity? So, with that change also free AT-grenades for Cons would be a possibility.

Thinking around the corns isn't your strength, isn't it?

thats a long discussion but a short way of putting it is

1. conscripts suck without doctrines

2. even with AT nades sov will be helpless vs the halftrack the 221 and the luchs

3. the maxim sucks

4. T2 generally sucks to the point its unused without the PPSH doc...

5. i actually do agree on nerfing penals giving them volks mosins for 260mp with an optional techup to DPs for lategame scaling at the least... this means penals wont be oppressive kill everything SVT deathblobs and even in the lategame they have to stop to shoot

There are multible ways and problems. Moving units can be an easy solution, sometimes. (Tests are needed).

But like you said, Cons aren't that good without commander. And Penals are too good to give a reason to buff Cons.

Because why? Because you have to build T1 if you sniper wants immunity? So, with that change also free AT-grenades for Cons would be a possibility.

Thinking around the corns isn't your strength, isn't it?

And another confirmation that you know nothing about soviets and never played a singular game with them.

Newsflash:
Its NOT ostheer, its NOT working as ostheer, its NOT teching as ostheer, its NOT supposed to tech as ostheer.

You're talking soviets, but thinking ostheer.

Its SUPPOSED to pick one early game tech that covers basic needs for AI and AT and vehicle support is supposed to cover the rest. That is the very reason penals were given PTRS and that isn't going to change.

You're living example of that saying, you know "people who forget the past are deemed to repeat it".

There are multible ways and problems. Moving units can be an easy solution, sometimes. (Tests are needed).

But like you said, Cons aren't that good without commander. And Penals are too good to give a reason to buff Cons.

my suggestion is much less destructive to balance

penals - nerf to volks mosin clone give optional DP upgrade but keep PTRS as optional

SVT deathblobs wont occur but penals are now good at holding the line but lose alot of dps on the move... no more unstoppable deathblobs...

cons - ppsh becomes nondoc... ppsh commander abilities get replaced by cons storm package with smoke grenades HE nade and hit the dirt...

cons are still balanced vs grens earlygame but now can compete vs grens lategame without getting slaughtered

maxim - +0.001 suppression and inc damage...

maxim no longer becomes useless

And another confirmation that you know nothing about soviets and never played a singular game with them.

Newsflash:
Its NOT ostheer, its NOT working as ostheer, its NOT teching as ostheer, its NOT supposed to tech as ostheer.

You're talking soviets, but thinking ostheer.

Its SUPPOSED to pick one early game tech that covers basic needs for AI and AT and vehicle support is supposed to cover the rest. That is the very reason penals were given PTRS and that isn't going to change.

You're living example of that saying, you know "people who forget the past are deemed to repeat it".

You know the problem with you is? You arn't able to think over the things you arn't able to see, because you can't make an imagine in your brain. I read your post since years, allways the same.

Only because the teching was like that, it has not to stay so.

So, I am no fan of Penals, I am no fan that they get the PTRS. I am no fan that snipers are covert that effective by Penals. I am no fan that Cons are obsolet because of that situation. etc.

Soviets are broken, so lets fix that. And a buffed 221 will not be the solution.

my suggestion is much less destructive to balance

penals - nerf to volks mosin clone give optional DP upgrade but keep PTRS as optional

SVT deathblobs wont occur but penals are now good at holding the line but lose alot of dps on the move... no more unstoppable deathblobs...

cons - ppsh becomes nondoc... ppsh commander abilities get replaced by cons storm package with smoke grenades HE nade and hit the dirt...

cons are still balanced vs grens earlygame but now can compete vs grens lategame without getting slaughtered

maxim - +0.001 suppression and inc damage...

maxim no longer becomes useless

Many of your ideas I had and wrote years ago… and many of them are good.

Edit: So, why not make a mod to test it? People like Katitof only shut up if you show something. Their mind is limited. No troll, everyone know it.

And as I have said multiple times, 221 doesn't belong here and if it was up to me, it wouldn't even exist, only 223, alternatively 221 at the timing of 223 with adjusted costs as by that time, even USF should be able to fend it off by using M20 or M15.

But it does exist and is here so we can't ignore the disbalance it sits in.

You know the problem with you is? You arn't able to think over the things you arn't able to see, because you can't make an imagine in your brain. I read your post since years, allways the same.

The irony of this part is literally killing me.

Only because the teching was like that, it has not to stay so.

But it is and it isn't being revamped another time. It had T1 problems, but it doesn't anymore.
The strategy you're trying to use as example for your suggestions is dead for years.
Maybe you should think over the things you aren't able to see to understand that?

So, I am no fan of Penals, I am no fan that they get the PTRS. I am no fan that snipers are covert that effective by Penals. I am no fan that Cons are obsolet because of that situation. etc.

Oh sure you're not, I can tell that. But you know what?
Why aren't you complaining about brits doing the exact same thing with PIAT engies?
Or Ost, doing the same thing with shreck PGs?
Why do you think its only an issue with a faction that has the WEAKEST handheld AT to protect the sniper that can't even 360 no scope nuke your light?

Soviets are broken, so lets fix that. And a buffed 221 will not be the solution.

Soviets aren't broken, perhaps your utter refusal to use needed units when they are needed is broken?
You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist by creating even greater problem that was a massive problem before and was just fixed recently. Is it because your brain can't make an image out of it?

But it does exist and is here so we can't ignore the disbalance it sits in.

And instead of arguing about it, I would much rather have one or more community modders come here and explain the reasoning for the choice as well as intended role, because it most certainly is confusing to some.

Soviets aren't broken, perhaps your utter refusal to use needed units when they are needed is broken?
You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist by creating even greater problem that was a massive problem before and was just fixed recently. Is it because your brain can't make an image out of it?

Units with two Piats or two Schrecks become more or less useless versus infantry. Overall one Penals with PTRS and AT-explosive-charge performs better to stop breakthroughs as one PnzGren with Schrecks. The at-gun is good versus light cars, the charge will stop all tanks movements.

Units with two Piats or two Schrecks become more or less useless versus infantry. Overall one Penals with PTRS and AT-explosive-charge performs better to stop breakthroughs as one PnzGren with Schrecks. The at-gun is good versus light cars, the charge will stop all tanks movements.

Penals are much better than others at defending against armour but much worse at assaulting due to long aim times and low burst damage. It's a trade off. The AT snare won't do shit unless you get close enough for it to do shit. Not to say adjustments don't need made but the balance of it isn't problematic

@Katitof I too would like to hear their thoughts.

Penals are much better than others at defending against armour but much worse at assaulting due to long aim times and low burst damage. It's a trade off. The AT snare won't do shit unless you get close enough for it to do shit. Not to say adjustments don't need made but the balance of it isn't problematic

@Katitof I too would like to hear their thoughts.

Good at def, bad on assault. But you can comnbine them so easy. Put in a Sniper and you can overrun a hole position. Later a SU85 and even Panther has no chance. (that is good, but simply to easy to do, that is the problem) If there is no Ele etc. you will win because of lack of counters. If Penals would lose their AI ability, they would be fine. And that is no l2p, it is the problem of commander and fraction design.

But now you only need the time and the map-knowledge and the luck that you don't lose all inf by Panzerwerfer. If StuG or Panther can't hunt, they are they most useless units ingame. And if the enemys AT inf also can defend a position, then there is a problem.

So, nerf the Penals, if you don't change the line-up.

A.
- Give Penals same weapon-profile as Volks. Upgrade for better AI weapon or PTRS.

B.
- No Sniper with Penals.

If you want to rework Soviets (good luck with that), make another thread about it.

221 is simple the Obers of the vehicles. It's not meant to stay vanilla and the fuel upgrade is just there as a stopgap.

I wouldn't buff the performance, but would play by moving around the cost to build and the cost to upgrade. Take 5f from it and move it to the upgrade.
If the unit is not getting vet reasonable, improve the range/speed of the shared vet. Want to see the performance when people get access to riegels.

But it doesn't make sense to have early game doctrinal unit that has no counter when it arrives, while it counters literally all units on field at the time.
See the problem yet?

again it needs 50 fuel(20 cost 15 truck call in and starting with 15 fu less) gained before one can call it in if we are talking about timing for counters , all the counter come sooner
ex:ukf can get to tier 1 at the same time as the tech truck comes than okw has to wait other 20 fu for it, u can get at gun or RE for counters and if u want even the aec with a delay

If you want to rework Soviets (good luck with that), make another thread about it.

221 is simple the Obers of the vehicles. It's not meant to stay vanilla and the fuel upgrade is just there as a stopgap.

I wouldn't buff the performance, but would play by moving around the cost to build and the cost to upgrade. Take 5f from it and move it to the upgrade.
If the unit is not getting vet reasonable, improve the range/speed of the shared vet. Want to see the performance when people get access to riegels.

The unit has shared vet. Doesn't need to be on first line to vet.