OKW's 221 is too weak for its 20 fuel cost

221 should be in the game and it should actually be also available for Ostheer.

It should server as a counter to allied cars like the m3, UC, WC51 and a counter to snipers.

The 222 and 223 should be timed balanced and designed separately and if them being an upgrade to the 221 is an issues, they could/should become separate vehicles and not upgrades.

Currently the 221 is simply overpriced.

221 should be in the game and it should actually be also available for Ostheer.

It should server as a counter to allied cars like the m3, UC, WC51.

Reducing shock value of these vehicles to zero?
Ost already has faust from the very start of the game specifically to keep early lights at bay and same with OKW and puppchen(like it or not, that's intended counter, I had used and had used against meeffectively puppchen as 3rd or 4th unit to counter M3).
You want to counter them, wait for 222.
Why some units should be completely irrelevant from the get go?
Why would you NOT want to rush 221 as ost in every single game, when allies have absolutely nothing to fend off or even deter from pushing non support light?
Why ost and OKW should have a vehicle that can effectively dive in and chase without any fear of AT or snare?
Are you up for giving all 3 allied factions T0 tech and vet free way to field AT or AT nades from minute zero, so the counterplay to that 221 of yours exists?

Try to see at times something beyond "axis unit up, allied unit op" please.

Reducing shock value of these vehicles to zero?
Ost already has faust from the very start of the game specifically to keep early lights at bay and same with OKW and puppchen(like it or not, that's intended counter, I had used and had used against meeffectively puppchen as 3rd or 4th unit to counter M3).
You want to counter them, wait for 222.
Why some units should be completely irrelevant from the get go?
Why would you NOT want to rush 221 as ost in every single game, when allies have absolutely nothing to fend off or even deter from pushing non support light?
Why ost and OKW should have a vehicle that can effectively dive in and chase without any fear of AT or snare?
Are you up for giving all 3 allied factions T0 tech and vet free way to field AT or AT nades from minute zero, so the counterplay to that 221 of yours exists?

Having soft counter does not make these unit lose their shock value, and there is also the timing factor. 221 should come after these car.

Try to see at times something beyond "axis unit up, allied unit op" please.

Pls stop the personal comments.

In addiotn Pls stop projecting the problem you face on others. You are the one that is clearly allied biased and claim everything allied up and everything axis is op.

221 clearly under performs for cost no matter how much spin you want to put on it.

Dunno about 221, but 223 is pretty darn good. Was basically double fuel for me on multiple games today.

221 clearly under performs for cost no matter how much you want to put on it.

I suppose the difference is you're looking at the 221 and 223 as two separate units.

I see them like Obersoldaten: they in effect cost 340 MP 90ish MU, but you only have to pay the manpower to build them.

The Obersoldaten unit without its MG34 is hardly worth 340 MP, let alone the old 400, but it's still useful. Once you've paid the rest of the cost for its MG34, it leaps up to full effectiveness. It's the same with Rangers: naked Rangers just aren't anything to write home about.

You don't build a 221 to keep as a 221: you build it to provide some helpful fire support before it turns into a 223.

You could easily have the 223 as a 300 MP 30 FU unit you can only build after upgrading an HQ, and it would end the 221 complaining. But it'd be an effective nerf to the unit.

I suppose the difference is you're looking at the 221 and 223 as two separate units.

I see them like Obersoldaten: they in effect cost 340 MP 90ish MU, but you only have to pay the manpower to build them.

The Obersoldaten unit without its MG34 is hardly worth 340 MP, let alone the old 400, but it's still useful. Once you've paid the rest of the cost for its MG34, it leaps up to full effectiveness. It's the same with Rangers: naked Rangers just aren't anything to write home about.

You don't build a 221 to keep as a 221: you build it to provide some helpful fire support before it turns into a 223.

You could easily have the 223 as a 300 MP 30 FU unit you can only build after upgrading an HQ, and it would end the 221 complaining. But it'd be an effective nerf to the unit.

221 is UP

223 is not more cost efficient than opel blitz, it is a tougher and it can fight back but for far less cost efficient for an "economy" units when it has a cost fuel of 30 fuel and 4 pop.

And this bring back to my point. 221 should be balanced as a counter to cars and sniper and if that interferes with 223 balance, they should simply be different units.

And this bring back to my point. 221 should be balanced as a counter to cars and sniper and if that interferes with 223 balance, they should simply be different units.

Why should it be an armoured car counter?

Why should it be an armoured car counter?

Why shouldn't be? What role would want it have?

OKW having a doctrinal counter to m3/UC/WC51 and to snipers makes perfect sense.

Why shouldn't be? What role would want it have?

OKW having a doctrinal counter to m3/UC/WC51 and to snipers makes perfect sense.

But it doesn't make sense to have early game doctrinal unit that has no counter when it arrives, while it counters literally all units on field at the time.
See the problem yet?

High cost and low armor keep 221 in check.

Yet again(as you seem to completely ignore it every single time), no allied faction has counter for any decently armored light with turret in very early game 221 arrives.
You want stronger or cheaper aka more spammable 221? Sure, have it, but you have to make sure allies actually have a counter for it. Allow rifles to start with AT nades, make something so brits can use AT at T0 without fuel investment(you know, like puppchen and ost fausts) and lower cost of soviet AT nades from 25 to 10 and we may start talking about buffing or making 221 cheaper.

221 itself may not be most cost effective thing, but as already said, much like oversoldaten, its not suposed to, because its balanced around being upgraded.

If that wasn't enough, you seem to firmly believe once its 223, it should be planted on resource point and forgoten, like a cache. It shouldn't, it should then be used more aggressively, because now it can survive more and do more and shared vet allows it to vet up fast.

You want to make a dough and you complain that flour alone doesn't cut it. Well, flour alone isn't supposed to work, you're supposed to add water(upgrade) and then it'll work.

Why shouldn't be? What role would want it have?

OKW having a doctrinal counter to m3/UC/WC51 and to snipers makes perfect sense.

'why not' is not how you balance a game.

Putting the counter to a non-doctrinal problem in a commander is how you create problems like Special Weapons Regiment.

Either OKW and OST have adequate nondoctrinal tools to fight the M3, or they don't. If they don't, their tools need improving.

But it doesn't make sense to have early game doctrinal unit that has no counter when it arrives, while it counters literally all units on field at the time.
See the problem yet?

If you have trouble countering the 221 ask for help in the appropriate section.

High cost and low armor keep 221 in check.

No it simply makes it UP.

Yet again(as you seem to completely ignore it every single time), no allied faction has counter for any decently armored light with turret in very early game 221 arrives.

pls stop the personal remarks.
That is a timing issue that could easily be solve by tech requirements or CP.

The turret makes little difference.

You want stronger or cheaper aka more spammable 221? Sure, have it, but you have to make sure allies actually have a counter for it. Allow rifles to start with AT nades, make something so brits can use AT at T0 without fuel investment(you know, like puppchen and ost fausts) and lower cost of soviet AT nades from 25 to 10 and we may start talking about buffing or making 221 cheaper.

You seem to have no idea of what I suggest, if 221 main role is to counter cars and snipers non would have reason to spam them unless facing these units.

Show Spoiler

221 itself may not be most cost effective thing, but as already said, much like oversoldaten, its not suposed to, because its balanced around being upgraded.

No it does not the 223 upgrade make it an "economy" unit and the obersoldaten comparison is simply flawed.

If that wasn't enough, you seem to firmly believe once its 223, it should be planted on resource point and forgoten, like a cache. It shouldn't, it should then be used more aggressively, because now it can survive more and do more and shared vet allows it to vet up fast.

223 is irrelevant to 221, if there is an issue balancing both units they should become separate.

You have no idea what I believe pls stop guessing and putting word in my mouth.

You want to make a dough and you complain that flour alone doesn't cut it. Well, flour alone isn't supposed to work, you're supposed to add water(upgrade) and then it'll work.

I you want to quote me actually read what I am saying and respond to what I am saying and not your personal theories.

'why not' is not how you balance a game.

Putting the counter to a non-doctrinal problem in a commander is how you create problems like Special Weapons Regiment.

Special Weapons Regiment is completely irrelevant. You balance a game by giving roles to units and 221 can easily have the role of countering cars and snipers. If you can come up with better role feel free to post it.

Either OKW and OST have adequate nondoctrinal tools to fight the M3, or they don't. If they don't, their tools need improving.

Weather OKW/Ostheer can counter M3 or not is again irrelevant the 221 can easily have that role of soft counter to cars and snipers while causing minimum issues.

It would simply be an extra option to counter specific units.

Special Weapons Regiment is completely irrelevant. You balance a game by giving roles to units and 221 can easily have the role of countering cars and snipers. If you can come up with better role feel free to post it.

Then that's could, not should.

Let be fair... the only problem Ostheer and Westheer have is the early ptrs with sniper combo destroing the hole ligh-vehicle play. So 221 has the same problem. Side-effect, Soviet T2 is often not needed, better building T3. 221 if fine versus US and Brits, Penal+Snipers are the problem.


To fix this problems (bringing the line-up in order) we should change soviet Tiers after all the changes Soviets got the last years.

T1:
- M3
- Penal
- Zis

(Maybe making the M3 unlooked in T0 after T1 or T2 got build, assault engineers moves into T1 instead. Cons in T0 becomes the base-building-unit instead etc.)

T2:
- Maxim
- Mortar
- Sniper


But, this needs an own debat. It is only an idea.

Edit: Making the 221 better brings more problems than solutions.

Let be fair... the only problem Ostheer and Westheer have is the early ptrs with sniper combo destroing the hole ligh-vehicle play. So 221 has the same problem. Side-effect, Soviet T2 is often not needed, better building T3. 221 if fine versus US and Brits, Penal+Snipers are the problem.


To fix this problems (bringing the line-up in order) we should change soviet Tiers after all the changes Soviets got the last years.

T1:
- M3
- Penal
- Zis

(Maybe making the M3 unlooked in T0 after T1 or T2 got build, assault engineers moves into T1 instead. Cons in T0 becomes the base-building-unit instead etc.)

T2:
- Maxim
- Mortar
- Sniper


But, this needs an own debat. It is only an idea.

Edit: Making the 221 better brings more problems than solutions.

2016 called, they want your posts complaining about meta from that time back.

2016 called, they want your posts complaining about meta from that time back.

Simply accept the facts. Whats the sense of making one commander able to counter the standard-tactic of one fraction? Building around doesn't fix the problem.

Simply accept the facts. Whats the sense of making one commander able to counter the standard-tactic of one fraction? Building around doesn't fix the problem.

Maybe you should accept the facts instead?
221 is obers of vehicles.
Just as obers do not work without LMG34 and are "not cost effective", 221 doesn't work well without its upgrade, because its not meant to.
That's one fact.

Do you want to know how I know that?
Because its priced 20fu and 10 for upgrade instead of 10fu with 20 upgrade.

Here's another:
Aggressive early game vehicle on axis side would steamroll all 3 allied factions, because they have NO ACCESS to neither snares nor AT at the time of its arrival.

Maybe you should accept the facts instead?
221 is obers of vehicles.
Just as obers do not work without LMG34, 221 doesn't work well without its upgrade.
That's one fact.

Here's another:
Aggressive early game vehicle on axis side would steamroll all 3 allied factions, because they have NO ACCESS to neither snares nor AT at the time of its arrival.

All early german vehicles arrive after all allii-player get access to AT-weapons now. And that is good. BUT it isn't good that one fraction get access to counter everything with only two unit-types and without any expenditure.

There are many ways too fix this porblem, but in my option no way it too buff the 221 for that.

Edit: I am a fan of pushing Cons, nerf Penasl, make T2 more useful.

All early german vehicles arrive after all allii-player get access to AT-weapons now. And that is good. BUT it isn't good that one fraction get access to counter everything with only two unit-types and without any expenditure.

There are many ways too fix this porblem, but in my option no way it too buff the 221 for that.

Edit: I am a fan of pushing Cons, nerf Penasl, make T2 more useful.

Actually, one arrives before and is weak enough to be fended of by rifles only.
Do you want to tell me which one and repeat why?

Going back to my original point, 221 has no place, remove it and just put 223 once truck is deployed.
221 will never be self sufficient or cost effective, because its not supposed to be, it is NOT a vehicle with potential upgrade, its a half of vehicle with other half gated.

Let be fair... the only problem Ostheer and Westheer have is the early ptrs with sniper combo destroing the hole ligh-vehicle play. So 221 has the same problem. Side-effect, Soviet T2 is often not needed, better building T3. 221 if fine versus US and Brits, Penal+Snipers are the problem.


To fix this problems (bringing the line-up in order) we should change soviet Tiers after all the changes Soviets got the last years.

T1:
- M3
- Penal
- Zis

(Maybe making the M3 unlooked in T0 after T1 or T2 got build, assault engineers moves into T1 instead. Cons in T0 becomes the base-building-unit instead etc.)

T2:
- Maxim
- Mortar
- Sniper


But, this needs an own debat. It is only an idea.

Edit: Making the 221 better brings more problems than solutions.

T2 would be even more useless without the ZIS AT gun doe..