can we now fix soviet T2 please?

look the okw p4 cost around 150 fuel u can almost buy 2 t 34 for it....

140 fuel*... 3 T-34s is 270 fuel while 2 P4s is 280... id take 2 OKW p4s over 3 T-34s thank you very much

the test i have done was around 17 range(as i don't have an ingame meter i simply put sandbag at half the vision range of the unit)....

i use the cons sandbag as a representation of approx 10 range... found out by comparing it to the penal satchel which has 10 range afaik... i could be wrong with my approx but i used 2 conscript sandbag lengths for the engagement

okw pays 15 fuel for each truck, it's not a one time thing

yet the cost for SWS trucks is mostly tied to teching... overall soviet T2 teching to T3 plus sidetech is far more expensive than okw teching to T2 straight...
20 (t2) + 25 (atnade) + 85 (T3) + 15 (molly)
15 (truck) + 45 (T2)

also the same applies for straight T2
20 (t1) + 25 (atnade) + 15 (molly)
15 (truck) + 25 (T2)

hell T1 + AT nade is already more expensive than T1 + truck...

sturm pay for the med drop each time , they are not free (like the brit ones)

doesnt matter... were talking about sov... currently okw has the most healing options ingame and has better healing than sov... and mind you sov is already pressed for manpower... and the brits have no access to medics and have to upgrade the squad to have healing ability aswell... mind you that 45 muni = 3 healing...

just so u know cons are one unit of the soviet the other 8 benefit from the medics too

i would take 3 tank vs 2 any day it's 160 more damage and 640 more health for 80 less armor and 10 less pen, for me that's a deal especially if i paid tier 4 30 fuel less

brits have access to healer, it's in their forward building, and like okw some of their unit can heal ooc

tier 1 of soviet is 10 fu not 20, thats tier 2 (in fact u should know best as u already participated a tread about soviet tier 4 and asking for a cost reduction only for other to prove that SU still pay less for teching)

u also conveniently forgot to add the staring resources for each factions (okw start at 5 while most start at 20)

btw it's u who want to compare soviet vs volks and then say that volks get free stuff cause u only count the optional upgrade that u want

okw has the most total cost for teching, if we don't count optional then brit pay more, that's it

i would take 3 tank vs 2 any day it's 160 more damage and 640 more health for 80 less armor and 10 less pen, for me that's a deal especially if i paid tier 4 30 fuel less

no... just no... 2x P4s will win and trade consistently and efficiently vs 3x T-34s if the user has half a brain cell... if you think otherwise then lets nerf the OKW P4 to T-34 levels and buff the T-34 to OKW P4 levels for a patch and see axis players wont cry... this is a pathetic attempt to justify bias...

brits have access to healer, it's in their forward building, and like okw some of their unit can heal ooc

mmkay noted... didnt see this a few patches ago...

tier 1 of soviet is 10 fu not 20, thats tier 2 (in fact u should know best as u already participated a tread about soviet tier 4 and asking for a cost reduction only for other to prove that SU still pay less for teching)

as i said OKW T1 = SOV T2 OKW T2 = sov T3... sov T1 is a different issue and is actually a viable playstyle due to the m3 and the penal battalion...

btw that thread did confirm that sov paid more for teching not less... okw can still get to T4 earlier than sov...

235 vs 190/195 to T4
T2 + at nade + T3 + T4 + molly vs (T2 + medics)/T3 + T4

and without optionals side techs?
195 vs 165/195 to T4

OKW pays less or the same for teching period... they simply get free stuff without the optionals soo quit the bullshit

u also conveniently forgot to add the staring resources for each factions (okw start at 5 while most start at 20)

mind you OKW starts with the highest manpower start ingame 340 base + 300MP sturmpioneer... 640 mp starting(!!!)

the next best is UKF and ost 340 + 280 IS/420 + 200 pioneer... 620 MP starting...

sov is the worst 390 + 170... 560 mp starting...


but since you want to cherrypick data then fine
175 vs 160/190 to T4

OKW going T1 still techs cheaper to T4 than sov T2...

btw it's u who want to compare soviet vs volks and then say that volks get free stuff cause u only count the optional upgrade that u want

as if AT grenades are optional... AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA...

ok fuck it lets lock the panzerfaust on a 25 fuel sidetech and the incendiary nade for a 15 fuel sidetech for a patch and see if you dont complain...

okw has the most total cost for teching, if we don't count optional then brit pay more, that's it

this is bullshit as proven by the above post

This thread might be about everything except Soviet t2

because stug life keeps on pushing his biases and derailing the argument in an attempt to prove that OKW is somehow the worst faction ingame...

the zis would like to have a word with you... mind you the rakaten is not the worst AT gun... however it is the cheeziest... it cannot be used like standard AT guns like the pak 40 or the M7 or the 6 pdr... it has to be used in hold fire and open fire only when a tank has either come close enough for you to snare and kill with the rak...

also mind you rakatencheese is the best ambulance killing and repairing tank killing strategy ingame...

lastly rakatens cant be spotted via mortar flares pathfinders snipers or recon T-70s.... this means an area that is thought to have little AT might be a deathtrap for any tank... also it absolutely neutralizes the snipers ability to pick it off and the soviet mortars ability to push off an AT gun by mortarfire...

lastly the rakaten costs 270 mp... same as an m7 but better...

I'd put the zis in the upper echlonof AT guns actually. The barrage is fantastic and the 6 man crew is nice as well. The pen is a bit lower but overall it's an AT gun I'll always grab vs destroying it

the sthealt of the rakt is there cause it only has 50 range and doesn't have atgun cover(shhots don't bounce from the at defense) the m7 has more range more cone of fire fire faster but has less pen

50 range is compensated by stealth.. no cover is compensated by retreat and stealth... low ROF is compensated by being able to penetrate all allied tanks except an IS-2 while the M7 dings against axis mediums without HVAP...

id gladly take the rakaten even as USF over the M7 thank you very much...

btw im all in to remove the rakt and add the old v coh pak 38 (same stats as the current usf at gun but less cone of fire and instead of pen rounds they get first strike: 50% more pen and accuracy for the first shoot out of stealth )

stealth AT guns are simply cheesy as of the current meta... the "sneak the AT gun to kill muh ambulance katyusha or repairing tank and retreat" meta has to end here

I'd put the zis in the upper echlonof AT guns actually. The barrage is fantastic and the 6 man crew is nice as well. The pen is a bit lower but overall it's an AT gun I'll always grab vs destroying it

problem is compared to the 6 pdr the pak 40 m7 or the rak the zis is actually worse at being an AT gun than these equivalents... but yes the zis is good enough at its job at least unlike a certain maxim....

problem is compared to the 6 pdr the pak 40 m7 or the rak the zis is actually worse at being an AT gun than these equivalents... but yes the zis is good enough at its job at least unlike a certain maxim....

The zis is only bad if you don't account for all of its other advantages. As a vet ability it's got a decent one that increases it Los allowing it to pop another shot, it can be wheeled up to deal with garrisons and even pop a good shot into a blob where others need to pull back immediately. It's got the best chance at surviving a flank/indirect fire. The zis is worse as an AT platform but it's strength comes from not being dead weight if there is no tanks to shoot at.

I'm all for pointing out things like the Maxim being irredeemablly bad, but the zis is all yuu could want in a support weapon

The zis is only bad if you don't account for all of its other advantages. As a vet ability it's got a decent one that increases it Los allowing it to pop another shot, it can be wheeled up to deal with garrisons and even pop a good shot into a blob where others need to pull back immediately. It's got the best chance at surviving a flank/indirect fire. The zis is worse as an AT platform but it's strength comes from not being dead weight if there is no tanks to shoot at.

I'm all for pointing out things like the Maxim being irredeemablly bad, but the zis is all yuu could want in a support weapon

well i dont really find the zis bad tbh...tracking and barrage is useful vs static emplacements MGs and blobs at close range...the point was that its the worst AT gun in the role of an AT gun... and that the rakaten is far superior as a dedicated AT platform than the more multirole zis

well i dont really find the zis bad tbh...tracking and barrage is useful vs static emplacements MGs and blobs at close range...the point was that its the worst AT gun in the role of an AT gun... and that the rakaten is far superior as a dedicated AT platform than the more multirole zis

The raketen have its problem against tanks though, one stray shot and getting it decrewed is one of the most infuriating thing about it.

The raketen have its problem against tanks though, one stray shot and getting it decrewed is one of the most infuriating thing about it.

keep it on hold fire until it is needed then

stealth AT guns are simply cheesy as of the current meta... the "sneak the AT gun to kill muh ambulance katyusha or repairing tank and retreat" meta has to end here

thats what i want v coh pak 38 moved at 10% move speed while stehaled, the rakt get 50% and impoves with vet

keep it on hold fire until it is needed then

You best hope you can one shot kill that tank because if it returns fire it will drop 2 models on a direct hit, at the very minimum.

You best hope you can one shot kill that tank because if it returns fire it will drop 2 models on a direct hit, at the very minimum.

my new technique with rakatens circumvents this nicely... get a rakatens stay on hold fire and let the tank chase a volks... open fire and fire pfaust... rip tank... also the change of a direct hit vs a rakaten isnt that high... and though it does kill 2 crew on a direct hit from a T-34 a direct hit isnt a common thing...

lastly the best tactic is building 2 rakatens and using one on the frontline while using the other to hunt down ambulances repairing tanks and katyushas... hell they even double as recon

thats what i want v coh pak 38 moved at 10% move speed while stehaled, the rakt get 50% and impoves with vet

add a "stealth only while in cover" then im fine... romulan cloaking devices on all terrain is simply ridiculous... its like im james T kirk fighting the romulan warbird in the balance of terror...

but a romulan warbird that doesnt have any detectable exhaust or weaknesses to its cloak

no... just no... 2x P4s will win and trade consistently and efficiently vs 3x T-34s if the user has half a brain cell... if you think otherwise then lets nerf the OKW P4 to T-34 levels and buff the T-34 to OKW P4 levels for a patch and see axis players wont cry... this is a pathetic attempt to justify bias...


mmkay noted... didnt see this a few patches ago...



as i said OKW T1 = SOV T2 OKW T2 = sov T3... sov T1 is a different issue and is actually a viable playstyle due to the m3 and the penal battalion...

btw that thread did confirm that sov paid more for teching not less... okw can still get to T4 earlier than sov...

235 vs 190/195 to T4
T2 + at nade + T3 + T4 + molly vs (T2 + medics)/T3 + T4

and without optionals side techs?
195 vs 165/195 to T4

OKW pays less or the same for teching period... they simply get free stuff without the optionals soo quit the bullshit


mind you OKW starts with the highest manpower start ingame 340 base + 300MP sturmpioneer... 640 mp starting(!!!)

the next best is UKF and ost 340 + 280 IS/420 + 200 pioneer... 620 MP starting...

sov is the worst 390 + 170... 560 mp starting...


but since you want to cherrypick data then fine
175 vs 160/190 to T4

OKW going T1 still techs cheaper to T4 than sov T2...

as if AT grenades are optional... AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA...

ok fuck it lets lock the panzerfaust on a 25 fuel sidetech and the incendiary nade for a 15 fuel sidetech for a patch and see if you dont complain...



this is bullshit as proven by the above post

no 3 t 34 76 can easily beat 2 p 4 if u have brain as 1 can flank while the other face off the p 4, for me u can swap the t 34 for the okw p4 3 seconds latter people will whine about okw rushing t 34 and then having the panther too i bet my as on it

okw can get tier faster if he forgoes LV while soviet can get it or to put it better "what ? why soviet get free light veichele tech when they go for tier 4 that's unfair i have to chose tech for a cheaper price and can't get both why does he get it for free" (if u did not get it it's the same for no optional tech increased teching cost)

they have the most expensive thech tree period if u want to rush (spoiler it's not viable) oster can reach tier 4 without building any other structure

"i mean u dont need at nades u have mines arguably they are better than at nades" if u still dont get the point medics are mandatory too

obv it's more cheap u are skipping a tech okw don't have a tier 4 they have just 3 tier if u go one u give up something

btw u can get t 34 faster than a p4 even if okw rush while soviet can even get full tech and still get t 34 sooner thanks to the bonus starting fuel

u can remove them when medic are free of fuel and there is no tech cost for first truck and they start with 20 fuel

it's not bull shit just cause u don't like it, math is math okw going from tier 1 to tier 3 cost way more than soviet going from tier 1 to tier 4 with or without optional, if u rush u lose the ability to build either light vehicle or medics+mortar(leig)+AA half truck

add a "stealth only while in cover" then im fine... romulan cloaking devices on all terrain is simply ridiculous... its like im james T kirk fighting the romulan warbird in the balance of terror...

but a romulan warbird that doesnt have any detectable exhaust or weaknesses to its cloak

i wonder how can u tolerate the soviet stealth tank and at guns if so

i wonder how can u tolerate the soviet stealth tank and at guns if so

The tank stealth that makes the tank stationary and dressed like a bush? Or the AT camo that literally crawls? Super comparable moving while invisible and zippy rak cheese. 100% A1.

The tank stealth that makes the tank stationary and dressed like a bush? Or the AT camo that literally crawls? Super comparable moving while invisible and zippy rak cheese. 100% A1.

could u at least read what i wrote i just said to copy the 10% move speed of v coh

no 3 t 34 76 can easily beat 2 p 4 if u have brain as 1 can flank while the other face off the p 4, for me u can swap the t 34 for the okw p4 3 seconds latter people will whine about okw rushing t 34 and then having the panther too i bet my as on it

1. a flanking T34 is a good way of running into a volks and getting fausted
2. i have an engine aswell i can easily disengage when i see im flanked
3. in all model engagements ive done (simulating tank movement by counting seconds) the panzer 4s won in ALL SITUATIONS
A. frontal engagement all T-34 lost
b. first shot was a rear shot second and third was a side shot for the 1 flanking T-34... all T-34s lost
C. T-34 sits at max range 2 infront and 1 at back.. T-34s still lost
D. 1 T-34 sits right next to the panzer 4 the other 2 stay at the front... 2 T-34s destroyed.. panzer 4 lost... T-34 at low HP...
4. quite literally the only time 3 T-34s won in the scenario was when i quite literally put 1 T34 right behind the P4s... and the T-34s still lost 2 T-34s
and quite frankly you would have to be 3 years old to have situation D happen to you

5. sure tell relic to buff the T-34-76... id gladly take it for a patch especially noting how the panzer 4s won EVERY SITUATION EXCEPT 1

okw can get tier faster if he forgoes LV while soviet can get it or to put it better "what ? why soviet get free light veichele tech when they go for tier 4 that's unfair i have to chose tech for a cheaper price and can't get both why does he get it for free" (if u did not get it it's the same for no optional tech increased teching cost)

ok soo lets assume your bullshit and say nobody built light vehicles or had side upgrades
85 T3 + 90 T4 + 20 T2 = 195
25 T1 + 15 sws + 15 sws + 120 T3 = 175
45 T2 + 15 sws + 15 sws + 120 T3 = 195


now lets assume your bigger bullshit and say okw got medics because "its not optional" but sov doesnt get at nades or molotov because "its optional"
85 T3 + 90 T4 + 20 T2 = 195
25 T1 + 15 sws + 15 sws + 120 T3 + 15 medics = 190
(T2 doesnt apply for OKW)


now lets assume your bullshit and say okw got medics because "its not optional" but sov doesnt get AT nades because "its optional" sov gets molly`s for (a semblance of) infantry parity
85 T3 + 90 T4 + 20 T2 + 15(molly) = 210
25 T1 + 15 sws + 15 sws + 120 T3 + 15 medics = 190
(T2 still doesnt apply)


now lets assume your bullshit and say nobody built light vehicles but we have to keep volksgrenadiers and conscripts at SIMILAR UTILITY LEVELS because we are attempting to create a BALANCED GAME not an AXIS BIASED one... despite the lack of light vehicles
85 T3 + 90 T4 + 20 T2 + 15(molly) + 25 (AT grenade) = 235
25 T1 + 15 sws + 15 sws + 120 T3 + 15 = 190
(T2 would be redundant here without light vehicle phase)


now what about fuel T4 with light vehicle phase?
assuming OKW went luchs sov went T-70
85 T3 + 90 T4 + 20 T2 + 15(molly) + 25 (AT grenade)+ 70 T-70 = 305
45 T2 + 15 sws + 15 sws + 120 T3 + 55 luchs = 250


assuming OKW went halftrack... sov went m5/m16 grinder bcz i care about balance unlike someone else here
85 T3 + 90 T4 + 20 T2 + 15(molly) + 25 (AT grenade) + 30 m5 = 265
25 T1 + 15 sws + 15 sws + 120 T3 + 15 medics + 55 flaktruck = 245


and lastly lets be a total sucker for hitler and simply give okw a flaktruck while sov can simply suck it
85 T3 + 90 T4 + 20 T2 + 15(molly) = 235
25 T1 + 15 sws + 15 sws + 120 T3 + 15 + 55 = 245
finally sov has cheaper teching!!!1!1 soviet op pls nerf?


even assuming your bullshit your argument doesnt hold to scrutiny... okw has cheaper tech than sov period. and attempting to claim that okw has cheaper teching is nothing but a pile of bullcrap

"i mean u dont need at nades u have mines arguably they are better than at nades" if u still dont get the point medics are mandatory too

you pay for medics i pay for medics... i pay for at nades... you get handout panzerfausts... that would be fine if conscripts and maxims didnt suck... but they do!

obv it's more cheap u are skipping a tech okw don't have a tier 4 they have just 3 tier if u go one u give up something

srsly? okw isnt supposed to go T1 and T2 by design... thats part of the faction is balanced just like sov or usf... only the brits and ost (this patch) cant skip it because they have a different (and expensive) teching system

btw u can get t 34 faster than a p4 even if okw rush while soviet can even get full tech and still get t 34 sooner thanks to the bonus starting fuel

and OKW can rape soviet T2 with ease because 1. the conscript sucks 2. the maxim sucks and 3. they get the highest starting MP ingame...

u can remove them when medic are free of fuel and there is no tech cost for first truck and they start with 20 fuel

it's not bull shit just cause u don't like it, math is math okw going from tier 1 to tier 3 cost way more than soviet going from tier 1 to tier 4 with or without optional, if u rush u lose the ability to build either light vehicle or medics+mortar(leig)+AA half truck

if you call the AT nade optional i swear im going to make another forum to lock the panzerfaust in a 25 fuel sidetech just for the balance mod to silence all arguments that the AT nade is optional...

also as ive said before if you are going both T1 and T2 as OKW (and not opting for pumaspam as lategame) then you simply suck because the faction isnt designed to do that

likewise werent you against allowing sov to skip T3 because "its totally fair when sov has higher tech costs" despite my suggestion making sov generalist teching some 40 fuel more expensive? because thats definitely some bias there...

also the cost difference isnt as high as you might expect
not skipping side techs
245 sov
250 okw

skipping side techs
205 sov
235 okw