the problem with soviet lategame

the main problem with the soviets imo is the lack of non doctrinal elite infantry and long or short range weapon upgrades... this means that in the lategame soviet infantry simply becomes ineffective against axis infantry...

the way i see it the soviets are left with 2 options... either massive and effective blitzkrieg penal rush to win the game before axis can pump out the weapon upgrades to win the engagements... or use doctrines like guards or shocks to defeat axis infantry...

this means any non guard/shock soviet build outside of a penal rush is simply not viable...

solutions:
(also nerf penals slightly to be fair with the solutions...)

1. give cons a non doc weapon upgrade and slightly nerf their vet... <= may break the game with an ooraahing molotiving high dps consblob

2. introduce brand new elite infantry into the soviet T3 or T4 building...

option 1: guards riflemen... armed with mosin nagants and a DP-28 upgrade however no PTRS... functionally similar to the obersoldaten but a 6 man squad instead... gets RD grenades and a not one step back vet 1 ability (to itself) instead of the nukenade and the blenderkorper.... <= a bit less likely to break the game dynamic

option 2: guards assault... armed with all PPSHs with an optional body armor upgrade... gets RD grenade and molotovs for close range combat... <= an interesting option inline with aggressive soviet play

option 3: introduce standard guards in the T3 or T4 building... replace guards with frontoviki with ppsh <=== a surefire way of not breaking the game... still presented with the standard anti everything blob however...

Soviets already have a good late game.

Not sure what the problem is because unless an OKW player managed to vet up Obers and Falls without having them die I don´t see what Axis infantry is truly better in late game than Vet 3 Penals Guards and PPSH Cons (depending on map and doctrine obviously). And even then Obers and Falls are AI specialists while Guards and Cons aren´t. Once Obers and Falls are vetted up they become the strongest infantry unit in the game but then they are still only 4 models and face rocket arty and tanks. It´s very rare that you fight vs an OKW player that has more than 1 high vet Ober alive.

The only real issue is when someone spams Conscripts without picking a PPSH doctrine, then late-game can indeed become difficult because Cons can´t hold their own without Guard support or vetted Maxims.

Soviets also have SU85 as an cheap but very effective TD, recon mode T70, good rocket arty and on top of all of that doctrinal tools like ISU, IS2 or ML20. There really isn´t any problem with Soviet late-game.

Not sure what the problem is because unless an OKW player managed to vet up Obers and Falls without having them die I don´t see what Axis infantry is truly better in late game than Vet 3 Penals Guards and PPSH Cons (depending on map and doctrine obviously). And even then Obers and Falls are AI specialists while Guards and Cons aren´t. Once Obers and Falls are vetted up they become the strongest infantry unit in the game but then they are still only 4 models and face rocket arty and tanks. It´s very rare that you fight vs an OKW player that has more than 1 high vet Ober alive.

at even vets obers actually massacre penals...though understandably so being more expensive and having access to muni upgrades...

The only real issue is when someone spams Conscripts without picking a PPSH doctrine, then late-game can indeed become difficult because Cons can´t hold their own without Guard support or vetted Maxims.

exactly the point... the only way soviet infantry can beat axis infantry is with doctrines

Soviets also have SU85 as an cheap but very effective TD, recon mode T70, good rocket arty and on top of all of that doctrinal tools like ISU, IS2 or ML20. There really isn´t any problem with Soviet late-game.

wehrmacht has an even cheaper but slightly less effective TD... good rocket arty that suppresses aswell...a really scary flamer halftrack... cheap non doc weapon upgrades for base infantry...

and thats where the real problem lies... soviet infantry cannot keep up with axis infantry... simply put... an over reliance on vehicles is a bad thing...

at even vets obers actually massacre penals...though understandably so being more expensive and having access to muni upgrades...

the only way soviet infantry can beat axis infantry is with doctrines

and thats where the real problem lies... soviet infantry cannot keep up with axis infantry... simply put... an over reliance on vehicles is a bad thing...

Yes Obers beat Penals at equal veterancy but the difference is that Penals start accumulating vet from the start of the game while Obers are locked behind T4 and have to deal with fighting already vetted up squads at vet 0.

It´s true that Soviets rely on doctrines more than other factions but at this stage of the game there is nothing that can be done about that. Also factions are supposed to be asymetrical, so what´s the problem?

Saying Soviet infantry can´t keep up with Axis infantry in late game is simply wrong. Again, vet 3 Penals or Guards are better than vet 3 Grenadiers and Volks. PPSH Cons are better than Grens and Volks if you have a game on a CQC map. The only way you really lose the infantry fight is if you spam Conscripts without PPSH doctrine, as I said before.

What I forgot to mention is that another way to get into trouble is too many PTRS upgrades on Penals. If you need to handicap yourself with PTRS because your build doesn´t work out then you will pay the price for it in late-game.

Yes Obers beat Penals at equal veterancy but the difference is that Penals start accumulating vet from the start of the game while Obers are locked behind T4 and have to deal with fighting already vetted up squads at vet 0.

penals are overperforming earlygame imo... they should be nerfed slightly to allow cons play to become more common... with cons getting a mild buff...

It´s true that Soviets rely on doctrines more than other factions but at this stage of the game there is nothing that can be done about that. Also factions are supposed to be assymetrical, so what´s the problem?

if a faction is reliant on a very specific meta of doctrines in order to win then its fundamentally broken... okw and wehr even usf are not fundamentally gimped unless they choose a doctrine

Saying Soviet infantry can´t keep up with Axis infantry in late game is simply wrong. Again, vet 3 Penals or Guards are better than vet 3 Grenadiers and Volks. PPSH Cons are better than Grens and Volks if you have a game on a CQC map. The only way you really lose the infantry fight is if you spam Conscripts without PPSH doctrine, as I said before.

actually no vet 3 penals are not better than vet 3 volks with STGs.... volk + stg is still superior... only guards can truly defeat the volks + stg at even veterancies

What I forgot to mention is that another way to get into trouble is too many PTRS upgrades on Penals. If you need to handicap yourself with PTRS because your build doesn´t work out then you will pay the price for it in late-game.

i am aware of this... but the problem is the penal really its simply soo good it means soviet meta strategies will be penal blitzkrieg with little variety... cons need small buffs and penals need small nerfs to fix this... with lategame infantry introduced to fix the lack of elite problem

penals are overperforming earlygame imo... they should be nerfed slightly to allow cons play to become more common... with cons getting a mild buff...

if a faction is reliant on a very specific meta of doctrines in order to win then its fundamentally broken... okw and wehr even usf are not fundamentally gimped unless they choose a doctrine


actually no vet 3 penals are not better than vet 3 volks with STGs.... volk + stg is still superior... only guards can truly defeat the volks + stg at even veterancies



i am aware of this... but the problem is the penal really its simply soo good it means soviet meta strategies will be penal blitzkrieg with little variety... cons need small buffs and penals need small nerfs to fix this... with lategame infantry introduced to fix the lack of elite problem

I disagree with almost everything you said.

Penals are not OP early game because of a multitude of reasons. They are expensive and require a tech-building. They face T0 MG42s. They beat anything 1v1 but are constantly outnumbered. In fact Penal openings vs Ost don´t even work because you don´t have enough Penals to flank the MG42 while fighting Grenadiers at the same time. Then 222 and Flame HT come way before you can get a T70 and you are forced to get PTRS or Guards.

Against OKW Penal openings work because of the M3. If the M3 hits a mine or gets killed by Rak and/or infantry fire you are in a very very bad spot because any OKW LV will make your life hell a few minutes later and you wont have an AT gun.

Vet 3 Penals beat vet 3-5 Volks + STG. In a fair 1v1 infantry fight Penals are just better. Not sure why you think STG Volks beat Penals.

So yeah I think you got it all wrong. Early to mid game Axis infantry is way better because of MG support and cost then in late game Soviets are better because their units are individually better and it doesn´t matter anymore how much MP they cost to build or call in. Only exception are Obers which are hard to vet up and are 4 models when tanks and arty are already rampant.

at even vets obers actually massacre penals...though understandably so being more expensive and having access to muni upgrades...

Penals come early ingame, if you forgot that little detail. This is absolutly balanced.

exactly the point... the only way soviet infantry can beat axis infantry is with doctrines

You just discovered, faction assymetry, is fun, you will get used to it. Now if you pretend cons to deal lategame with cheap ass cost, the best utility and doc upgrades, you are out of your mind.

wehrmacht has an even cheaper but slightly less effective TD... good rocket arty that suppresses aswell...a really scary flamer halftrack... cheap non doc weapon upgrades for base infantry...

Soviets do have those too. Or even better, they have a selfspotting, expensive but very effective TD to deal with heavies, Axis dont.

and thats where the real problem lies... soviet infantry cannot keep up with axis infantry... simply put... an over reliance on vehicles is a bad thing...

Soviet inf can keep up, almost 40 min ingame, if you cant manage to control and secure a good amount of VP you lost to yourself...
I dont want to be mean, but i cant understand the way you compare units and concepts, like blindly claiming "soviets are bad", no man, soviets are good, you are not using the best of them maybe.

I disagree with almost everything you said.

Penals are not OP early game because of a multitude of reasons. They are expensive and require a tech-building. They face T0 MG42s. They beat anything 1v1 but are constantly outnumbered. In fact Penal openings vs Ost don´t even work because you don´t have enough Penals to flank the MG42 while fighting Grenadiers at the same time. Then 222 and Flame HT come way before you can get a T70 and you are forced to get PTRS or Guards.

Against OKW Penal openings work because of the M3. If the M3 hits a mine or gets killed by Rak and/or infantry fire you are in a very very bad spot because any OKW LV will make your life hell a few minutes later and you wont have an AT gun.

the m3a1 does work against ost provided ost decides to separate and cap instead of forming a concentration early on but i digress... overall however i have had alot more success earlygame where OKW and wehr have no access to their scary arsenal of LMG and STG upgrades...

Vet 3 Penals beat vet 3-5 Volks + STG. In a fair 1v1 infantry fight Penals are just better. Not sure why you think STG Volks beat Penals.

many times have i seen vet 3 volks just waltz in throw a flame nade forcing the penal out of cover and crush the penals alive... i will test this out with cheatmods but i do believe that this is the case

So yeah I think you got it all wrong. Early to mid game Axis infantry is way better because of MG support and cost then in late game Soviets are better because their units are individually better and it doesn´t matter anymore how much MP they cost to build or call in. Only exception are Obers which are hard to vet up and are 4 models when tanks and arty are already rampant.

a big problem with veterancy is that they cannot be replaced... ironically axis can replace their units with relative ease and pump out new infantry aswell... even more ironically the soviets seem to be the least capable of doing this due to how veterancy works

Penals come early ingame, if you forgot that little detail. This is absolutly balanced.

You just discovered, faction assymetry, is fun, you will get used to it. Now if you pretend cons to deal lategame with cheap ass cost, the best utility and doc upgrades, you are out of your mind.

Soviets do have those too. Or even better, they have a selfspotting, expensive but very effective TD to deal with heavies, Axis dont.

i kinda did state that penals were kinda strong earlygame and that T1 play was absolutely focused on blitzing and cutting down the enemy before they become a threat...


faction assymetry is good to a point... when a faction lacks an essential such as reliable non doctrinal infantry or mobile mortars (cough UKF) the faction tends to do extremely badly

and imo the best idea is to introduce new elite infantry to sov T4 as i stated with solution 2

2. introduce brand new elite infantry into the soviet T3 or T4 building...

option 1: guards riflemen... armed with mosin nagants and a DP-28 upgrade however no PTRS... functionally similar to the obersoldaten but a 6 man squad instead... gets RD grenades and a not one step back vet 1 ability (to itself) instead of the nukenade and the blenderkorper.... <= a bit less likely to break the game dynamic

option 2: guards assault... armed with all PPSHs with an optional body armor upgrade... gets RD grenade and molotovs for close range combat... <= an interesting option inline with aggressive soviet play

option 3: introduce standard guards in the T3 or T4 building... replace guards with frontoviki with ppsh <=== a surefire way of not breaking the game... still presented with the standard anti everything blob however...

Soviet inf can keep up, almost 40 min ingame, if you cant manage to control and secure a good amount of VP you lost to yourself...
I dont want to be mean, but i cant understand the way you compare units and concepts, like blindly claiming "soviets are bad", no man, soviets are good, you are not using the best of them maybe.

the soviets arent bad... theyre really good... theyre just highly reliant on doctrinal gimmicks like guards and shocks with penal cheese m3 that the gameplay is simply becoming monotonous... ever since the patch ive been experimenting with new strategies like commissar penal strats or conscript-shocks-urban defense in an attempt to break the monotonous use of guards motor coordination... by adding new elite infantry however i can play the game without having to rely on gimmicky setups due to the lack of a lategame core infantry unit

confirmed... just had a match... 2x vet 2 LMG grens engaged 2x vet 2 penals... penals lost

But.... outside of stock cons being utter shit late game there are not soviet late game problems.

But.... outside of stock cons being utter shit late game there are not soviet late game problems.

penals dont scale aswell later in the game... they are outclassed by volks STGs LMG grens and obers at even veterancies... though rightfully so as penals are oppressively strong until volks and grens get their upgrades... which is why i opted for a small nerf to the earlygame oppressiveness of penals in exchange for T4 or T3 elite infantry...

that or nerf the penals to rifle levels and give them a nondoc weapon upgrade essentially making them rifles with satchels...

Russian late game isn't about elite infantry, that's called "asymmetric balance" doctrinal inf is enough to augment this play-style.

If you don't like that, transition to one of the many late game vehicles the soviets have.

Soviets are fine.

Russian late game isn't about elite infantry, that's called "asymmetric balance" doctrinal inf is enough to augment this play-style.

If you don't like that, transition to one of the many late game vehicles the soviets have.

Soviets are fine.

What do you mean "doctrinal inf"? A PPSH for cons, right?

Russian late game isn't about elite infantry, that's called "asymmetric balance" doctrinal inf is enough to augment this play-style.

If you don't like that, transition to one of the many late game vehicles the soviets have.

Soviets are fine.

the problem with that is the rakatencheese... cloaking rakatens that can ambush kill advance on their own coupled with 2-3 obersoldaten is simply unstoppable as SOV... and katyushaing rakatens actually makes the problem worse as it creates lots of yellow cover for the rakatens to cloak in the lategame...

maxims are completely useless vs obersoldaten (they can frontally deathloop them)... cons ppsh gets slaughtered by obers... only shocks and guards can solve the problem and theyre both doctrinal... and when a faction requires doctrines to counter nondoctrinal cheese you know theres a problem

the problem with that is the rakatencheese... cloaking rakatens that can ambush kill advance on their own coupled with 2-3 obersoldaten is simply unstoppable as SOV... and katyushaing rakatens actually makes the problem worse as it creates lots of yellow cover for the rakatens to cloak in the lategame...

maxims are completely useless vs obersoldaten (they can frontally deathloop them)... cons ppsh gets slaughtered by obers... only shocks and guards can solve the problem and theyre both doctrinal... and when a faction requires doctrines to counter nondoctrinal cheese you know theres a problem

Thats not how raketen stealth works. Which proves you've never played them, go play all factions and that will teach you where you are weak, as soviet players will crush you when you play OKW, having never played it before obviously.

And I'll reiterate, if you're not going doctrinal, you counter OKW with VEHICLES. The aa halftrack is amazing at supression, SU-76 destroys blobs as well as katushya.

If he is raketening your katushya, then you're doing something wrong, there is also AI loiters in a bunch of the doctrines. It seems like you want OKW to have nothing, as they don't have vehicles that are good at AI late game, compared to soviets.

AI infantry, is OKW's game. If not, use the abundance of doctrines available to counter them.

Also, I main soviets, although I play the other 4 also. OKW is what I play most for Axis, they're definitely not op. They lack lots of tools which are quite easily exploited. The loss of certain units can spell GG for them very early.

Also, t-70 is your friend mid game.

Late game, Soviet Armour is superior (if used well) and covers all roles nicely. THere is no strat soviets cant counter.

If you want allied deathblobs, look no further than Riflemen and Infantry Sections, you can blob your little heart out and win!

Again, Soviets ONLY REQUIRE DOCTRINES TO COUNTER OKW INF, IF YOU WANT TO DO IT WITH INF, Otherwise your go to is vehicles.

What do you mean "doctrinal inf"? A PPSH for cons, right?

1)PPSH cons,
2)Shock Troops
3)Guard Rifles
4)Smg guards from lend-lease

OKW has no late game cqc infantry, all of these roll over okw inf at close range. Guards can trade well at long range.

Thats not how raketen stealth works. Which proves you've never played them, go play all factions and that will teach you where you are weak, as soviet players will crush you when you play OKW, having never played it before obviously.

rakatens cloak when they are out of combat and in yellow or green cover... and i have played as okw and obers + rakaten is an extremely tough combination for them to solve without relying on doctrinal units like the ISU KV-2 shocks or guards...

And I'll reiterate, if you're not going doctrinal, you counter OKW with VEHICLES. The aa halftrack is amazing at supression, SU-76 destroys blobs as well as katushya.

the AA HT is extremely vulnerable to rakatencheese... the SU-76 is only really useful vs a blob or static targets... and the katyusha creates alot of yellow cover that makes obers more resistant to suppression...only shocks and guards can counter obers efficiently

If he is raketening your katushya, then you're doing something wrong, there is also AI loiters in a bunch of the doctrines. It seems like you want OKW to have nothing, as they don't have vehicles that are good at AI late game, compared to soviets.

its not the katy that gets rakatened... its this gay arse tactic of spotting with the IR truck advancing with rakatens or some infantry... decloaking and firing forcing my T-34 back to repair... then running immediately before the katyusha kills it... the katyusha is now reloading and the T-34 had a large chunk of its health cut off forcing it to repair...after that penals simply melt due to obersoldaten... its not like the T-34 was heavily armored like a P4 or a brummbar or long ranged like a scott...

also the 238 armor OKW P4 is currently the best non doctrinal medium tank ingame...one or if not the best rocket arty ingame... its not OP nor broken... nor is OKW OP outside of the SWS bug (which as of the moment is gamebreakingly stupid)... but okw does have lategame vehicle AI...

AI infantry, is OKW's game. If not, use the abundance of doctrines available to counter them.

Also, I main soviets, although I play the other 4 also. OKW is what I play most for Axis, they're definitely not op. They lack lots of tools which are quite easily exploited. The loss of certain units can spell GG for them very early.

Also, t-70 is your friend mid game.

i never said OKW infantry is OP... nor did i say OKW was OP...

Late game, Soviet Armour is superior (if used well) and covers all roles nicely. THere is no strat soviets cant counter.

If you want allied deathblobs, look no further than Riflemen and Infantry Sections, you can blob your little heart out and win!

there is no strat the soviets cant counter with the right doctrine* panther or P4 + rak + obers are oppressive vs sov

rakatens cloak when they are out of combat and in yellow or green cover... and i have played as okw and obers + rakaten is an extremely tough combination for them to solve without relying on doctrinal units like the ISU KV-2 shocks or guards...



the AA HT is extremely vulnerable to rakatencheese... the SU-76 is only really useful vs a blob or static targets... and the katyusha creates alot of yellow cover that makes obers more resistant to suppression...only shocks and guards can counter obers efficiently


its not the katy that gets rakatened... its this gay arse tactic of spotting with the IR truck advancing with rakatens or some infantry... decloaking and firing forcing my T-34 back to repair... then running immediately before the katyusha kills it... the katyusha is now reloading and the T-34 had a large chunk of its health cut off forcing it to repair...after that penals simply melt due to obersoldaten... its not like the T-34 was heavily armored like a P4 or a brummbar or long ranged like a scott...

also the 238 armor OKW P4 is currently the best non doctrinal medium tank ingame...one or if not the best rocket arty ingame... its not OP nor broken... nor is OKW OP outside of the SWS bug (which as of the moment is gamebreakingly stupid)... but okw does have lategame vehicle AI...


i never said OKW infantry is OP... nor did i say OKW was OP...


there is no strat the soviets cant counter with the right doctrine* panther or P4 + rak + obers are oppressive vs sov

That's not how raks work dude.

That's not how raks work dude.

then how do they work? i noticed enemy troops dont fire at my raks so long as theyre in yellow or green cover and set to hold fire... i assumed they had a similar stealth ability to snipers...