The Role of Jaeger Light Infantry

I'm not really sure about the role of this unit in game, they snipe models, but they don't really seem to impact combat, especially for a unit that is 300mp, they consistently are out-performed by my volks. In the next patch, they have a cost reduction and come earlier, but have to buy their upgrade, yet, they wont be able to replace volks, as they are not as effective as a volks squad, even for the same price.

They can't really do anything better than another squad. I don't understand how the changes will make them a relevant squad and with this upcoming patch, now is a perfect time to give them a role.

Maybe they should be the same as a standard g43 gren squad, with a active snipe ability that costs muni?

Perhaps i'm seeing this all wrong. Any feedback would be awesome.

Cheers

I think that's why you find them underwhelming. You seem to expect them to be a straight replacement for volks, and that's simply not how they function. Rather than being a mainline unit, they're a utility/scout unit.

Sprint, scouting, and camo are all examples of utility that they provide.

Besides the obvious applications for these things, this also translates to them doing very well against HMGs. They have the sight range to avoid or flank them, and sprint ensures that the HMG cant reface its arc of fire quickly enough, even if the player reacts quickly.

Beyond that, their vet is much better than volks, meaning that they still retain relevant long range damage even in the late game.

As for discussions about possible changes, what role would you give them, how is that not currently (or on the commander revamp mod) their role, and how would you make them fit that role?

For one, the snipe shot was discussed as a possible change...and shot down really quickly. Imagine how strong jaegers would be if they had a snipe ability. UKF would especially suffer from this change, with sections starting at 4 models. They would also hardcounter snipers, a traditional OKW weakness. The idea sounds really cool, but when you actually have to think about how this kind of change would play out, the fantasy falls apart really quickly.

In defense of the changes that did make it to the preview mod, I think they're practical and give the unit the sort of QOL that they really needed.

I think that's why you find them underwhelming. You seem to expect them to be a straight replacement for volks, and that's simply not how they function. Rather than being a mainline unit, they're a utility/scout unit.

Sprint, scouting, and camo are all examples of utility that they provide.

Besides the obvious applications for these things, this also translates to them doing very well against HMGs. They have the sight range to avoid or flank them, and sprint ensures that the HMG cant reface its arc of fire quickly enough, even if the player reacts quickly.

Beyond that, their vet is much better than volks, meaning that they still retain relevant long range damage even in the late game.

As for discussions about possible changes, what role would you give them, how is that not currently (or on the commander revamp mod) their role, and how would you make them fit that role?

For one, the snipe shot was discussed as a possible change...and shot down really quickly. Imagine how strong jaegers would be if they had a snipe ability. UKF would especially suffer from this change, with sections starting at 4 models. They would also hardcounter snipers, a traditional OKW weakness. The idea sounds really cool, but when you actually have to think about how this kind of change would play it, the fantasy falls apart really quickly.

In defense of the changes that did make it to the preview mod, I think they're practical and give the unit the sort of QOL that they really needed.

Firstly, thank you for such a detailed and well thought out answer. If they had snipe, It could be locked behind vet and make it only slightly longer range than their current max range, yet shorter than sniper range so that it couldn't be abused, act as a soft-counter, and would only punish snipers that are out of position, or, give it a long cooldown (~30-45 sec).

Also, they are a doctrinal unit, so its not like their snipe ability would be ubiquitous.

In regards to vet, I can never seem to get them past vet 3, the game is over too soon with the jaegers never getting enough kills to vet past that, in my tests they need to kill 65+ models to get to vet 5, although I am aware at vet 5 they have very small target size as a reward, this doesn't seem achievable in most games.

Finally, if the snipe ability would actually break the game, what about giving them commando style stealth so that they can flank more effectively?

Thanks again!

In regards to vet, I can never seem to get them past vet 3, the game is over too soon with the jaegers never getting enough kills to vet past that, in my tests they need to kill 65+ models to get to vet 5, although I am aware at vet 5 they have very small target size as a reward, this doesn't seem achievable in most games.

Finally, if the snipe ability would actually break the game, what about giving them commando style stealth so that they can flank more effectively?

Thanks again!

The vet problem will be solved with the revamp commander patch because vet requirements will go down. The unit will be also cheaper and come out earlier (1 CP) but you have to upgrade it with the G43. I think this changes make the Jaegers a really nice addition and can replace the 4th Volksgren.
I also had the some problems with the current Jaegers because i used them as frontline troops. I tested them again with the revamp mod and used them behind the Volks. The unit was really good now.
Im sure you will like them after the patch!

Also they have 50 view range, which makes them very good scouts. Recon (information) will be increasingly valuable the better you become at the game.

They're Pathfinders. Long sight range, utility ability, half-sniper rifles that roll to instakill sufficiently injured models.

If they're taking damage, they'll be less effective than Volks in combat, but the idea is a Volks squad up front and a JLI firing away from the back'll be more effective than two Volks.

They're Pathfinders. Long sight range, utility ability, half-sniper rifles that roll to instakill sufficiently injured models.

If they're taking damage, they'll be less effective than Volks in combat, but the idea is a Volks squad up front and a JLI firing away from the back'll be more effective than two Volks.

My issue was, I found 4x Volks to be far more effective than 3x Volks and 1xJLI. My JLI barely gets any kills, also, it fights at 35 range also so it can be focus fired down, not that the enemy targets it because then volks can get into range.

My issue was, I found 4x Volks to be far more effective than 3x Volks and 1xJLI. My JLI barely gets any kills, also, it fights at 35 range also so it can be focus fired down, not that the enemy targets it because then volks can get into range.

Vetted JLI are monsters.
Vetted volks are alright.

JLI also are not volks replacement in any way, pfussies are, JLI are force multipliers, they don't work well on their own especially unvetted, but once vetted, they will outperform volks easily.

think of them like the sniper of okw, they are very good support units athought they should give them 2 sniper g 34 so they deal less damage but can confirm kills better

Firstly, thank you for such a detailed and well thought out answer. If they had snipe, It could be locked behind vet and make it only slightly longer range than their current max range, yet shorter than sniper range so that it couldn't be abused, act as a soft-counter, and would only punish snipers that are out of position, or, give it a long cooldown (~30-45 sec).

My concern with putting the snipe behind vet is that it sounds like a fairly impactful ability, which I actually think can be kind of dangerous. This ability would likely take up a sizeable part of jaeger's "power budget." What this means is that jaegers without the ability (without vet) could end up feeling underwhelming. The idea is that it shouldn't feel like you don't get to actually use your unit until a certain vet level. Basically, my concern is that either the ability could only be watered down to the point of being near pointless, or strong enough that it feels impactful and satisfying, but makes jaegers that don't have access to it feel useless.

Also, they are a doctrinal unit, so its not like their snipe ability would be ubiquitous.

I'd argue that a snipe ability that actually has impact would necessarily end up being ubiquitous.

My concern with putting the snipe behind vet is that it sounds like a fairly impactful ability, which I actually think can be kind of dangerous. This ability would likely take up a sizeable part of jaeger's "power budget." What this means is that jaegers without the ability (without vet) could end up feeling underwhelming. The idea is that it shouldn't feel like you don't get to actually use your unit until a certain vet level. Basically, my concern is that either the ability could only be watered down to the point of being near pointless, or strong enough that it feels impactful and satisfying, but makes jaegers that don't have access to it feel useless.


I'd argue that a snipe ability that actually has impact would necessarily end up being ubiquitous.

I've seen a few of your replays online and have picked up a few tips, do you have any or would you be able to upload one where you use the Jaegers effectively so that I can see? Would be really helpful. What do you think about them getting camo initially and then getting the same camo as fallschirmjaeger at vet 2?

Thanks.

To everyone,

If the unit is indeed fine, then its my issue and a L2P issue, thanks for all the feedback guys its definitely helpful.

Vetted JLI are monsters.
Vetted volks are alright.

JLI also are not volks replacement in any way, pfussies are, JLI are force multipliers, they don't work well on their own especially unvetted, but once vetted, they will outperform volks easily.

I really struggle to get them vetted over the duration of a standard game ~30 mins, I've been using a single squad of them supporting 4x volks. Not sure if its an issue with me or the unit.

Apparently their vet requirement is getting lower and they come out earlier now, hopefully this helps.

I really struggle to get them vetted over the duration of a standard game ~30 mins, I've been using a single squad of them supporting 4x volks. Not sure if its an issue with me or the unit.

Apparently their vet requirement is getting lower and they come out earlier now, hopefully this helps.

Their Vet is very high so its especially hard to vet up. But the upcoming back I believe fixed some of the vet requirement so they shouldn't be so difficult to vet up.


JLI are similar to Pathfinders as they are designed to supplement your infantry with long range firepower over being a tanky mainliner. Both are squishy and dont hold up well under concentrated fire.

Their Vet is very high so its especially hard to vet up. But the upcoming back I believe fixed some of the vet requirement so they shouldn't be so difficult to vet up.


JLI are similar to Pathfinders as they are designed to supplement your infantry with long range firepower over being a tanky mainliner. Both are squishy and dont hold up well under concentrated fire.

Atm, they seem like a waste of popcap, having 4x volks and 1x jli is not better than having just 4x volks and saving the popcap for a useful unit. The stealth and infiltration isn't really useful as it doesn't allow you to flank with them and infiltration is not good as they cant really do anything alone anyway. They seem to lose to everything, if both are in green cover.

All of this is just my personal experience, perhaps there is the same problem with pathfinders as I never see them used either. In two months of playing(almost), I have never seen anyone use either unit. Or perhaps the problem is my lack of skill, but I really like the unit but I can never make them work, I also don't want to use the Breakthrough doctrine instead as I don't like the blob encouraging playstyle.

Apparently their vet requirement is getting lower and they come out earlier now, hopefully this helps.

Changelog upcoming Commander Revamp Patch:

-CP requirement from 2 to 1.
-Must buy their sniper rifle for 45 munitions. Requires 1 truck to be deployed.
-Squad cost from 300 to 250.
-Reinforce from 37 to 31
-Reinforce time from 7.5 to 6
-Salvage ability now available; replaced by Thorough Salvage in Scavenge Doctrine.
-Veterancy requirements from 660/1320/2240/3520/4400 to 520/1040/2080/3120/3970
-Camouflage is now available at Veterancy 0
-Now has First-Strike Bonuses; increases accuracy by 50% for 5 seconds.
-JLI G43 Sniper Rifle light and heavy cover accuracy modifiers from 0.5 to 0.9.
-JLI G43 Sniper Rifle garrison accuracy modifiers from 0.5 to 0.9
-Booby traps standardized to the new Soviet version (-Cost reduced from 100 to 45, Damage from 250 to 80, AOE distance from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0.25/3/6)

Most notable changes are that the unit will come sooner (1CP and less MP cost) so you can replace the 4th Volks build with a JLI squad, making it easier to fit them into your army composition and start vetting them up sooner. Reinforcement time/cost has gone down so they will trade much more cost effective. Even more so, the G43 Sniper Rifle will deal much more damage due to increased accuracy versus cover/garrissons giving them another edge over Volks. Camo and First Strike bonus makes them good for ambushing and defending. New vet requirements (+ timing) will make it much easier to vet them up.

So overall, their role as second line force multipliers will stay the same but they will be much better at it, and they're gonna do pretty good in straight up long range fights if they get caught without support. With the sniper rifle accuracy and crit mechanic I think they'll do very well supporting MG 34s because these spread damage and leave lots of models at low enough HP to be sniped.

I've seen a few of your replays online and have picked up a few tips, do you have any or would you be able to upload one where you use the Jaegers effectively so that I can see? Would be really helpful.

I would also like to see some games where top players use the "new revamped" Jaegers. Want to learn to.
@Jae for Jett: Maybe you could save a replay if you test the mod against other mod members? I would really appreciate it.

Atm, they seem like a waste of popcap, having 4x volks and 1x jli is not better than having just 4x volks and saving the popcap for a useful unit. The stealth and infiltration isn't really useful as it doesn't allow you to flank with them and infiltration is not good as they cant really do anything alone anyway. They seem to lose to everything, if both are in green cover.

All of this is just my personal experience, perhaps there is the same problem with pathfinders as I never see them used either. In two months of playing(almost), I have never seen anyone use either unit. Or perhaps the problem is my lack of skill, but I really like the unit but I can never make them work, I also don't want to use the Breakthrough doctrine instead as I don't like the blob encouraging playstyle.

As sanders said they are getting a vet requirement buff so it shouldn't impossible to vet them up like it is now, should help them a lot in scaling, Also if you manage to pick up a lmg off the ground they turn into pretty good elites. The biggest issue is that this doesn't happen often.

JLI use to get used a lot back when Scav Doc as a whole was good. Now there isn't really a point in going Scav Doc when the Ostwind is meh and there are better options for Elite infantry (Obers or Falls) rather than JLI.

Next patch thats coming next week I think should help them be more relevant. So maybe we will see them more.

JLI are support units. They have good sight range which help your tanks fight more efficiently.

In the next patch, they start with camouflage which help a lot when they are scavenging.

I've seen a few of your replays online and have picked up a few tips, do you have any or would you be able to upload one where you use the Jaegers effectively so that I can see? Would be really helpful. What do you think about them getting camo initially and then getting the same camo as fallschirmjaeger at vet 2?

Thanks.

To everyone,

If the unit is indeed fine, then its my issue and a L2P issue, thanks for all the feedback guys its definitely helpful.

I really appreciate how open minded you've remained throughout this discussion. I don't believe I have any replays that are compatible with the current version (well, I don't really save replays in general).

The best replays/casts of jaeger usage, and when jaegers were most meta in their current iteration, were from the lend lease era. Back then, I, and many players used jaegers A LOT. They were excellent against lend lease because jaegers do well against HMGs/Dshks (for the reasons stated in my last post), and had infiltration spawn (which really kept up the pressure against the relatively slow lend lease build and allowed you to deny crucial garrisons at will).

Of course, I wouldn't quite say the unit is exactly fine in its current state, but that's why they're getting changed in the commander revamp. Their absurd reinforce cost, and high vet requirements are two of the crucial things being addressed. As for your suggestion on camo, falls have stationary camo. They used to get this at vet 2, but they've been changed to have this at vet 0. Similarly, jaegers get stationary camo at vet 2, and they are now being changed to have this at vet 0. Basically, they are indeed being given stationary camo at vet 0, just like fallschirmjager currently have.

Don't underestimate the "panic call in" function they offer. When facing an MG that is placed in front of a building or simply an enemy force that is about to win a fight you can simply spawn them behind it. I have killed countless snipers with that on retreat aswell.