Why is the M20 so trashy?

Awful trade.

340 mp 20 fuel 60 muni for 360 mp and probably giving the enemy a bazooka.

70 muni if i'm not mistaken.

It's just an exemple.
It can be a good trade, assuming the M20 is hard to preseve, the sniper on the other hand will get on your nerves the whole game.

the M20 doesn't have to die for it.

Cant get it an anything more than a 1v1, slows your tech, takes ages to lay the "good mines", have to babysit b/c lack of crush. Its a mess of a unit that has to much risk related to you basically being out teched in anything other than a 1v1 and even in that its risky.

It wouldn't be so bad would it be cheaper or maybe be available earlier but since its practically an m3 with at mines, its hard to find value in it 20+50 fuel and the high MP cost (350?).

Advantages of m20:
1. Unilateral attack on an opponent who does not have an anti-vehicle.
2. Fast maneuvering allows you to knock various frontlines alternately.
3. Can utilize versatile ability.

Disadvantages of m20:
1. Extremely expensive cost of 340mp, 70muni, 20 fuel.
(70muni is the cost of armor upgrades, but most of the m20s are deployed at the same time as pushing upgrades, which is virtually a forced cost.) If you do not upgrade this, m20's armor will penetrated by infantry rifles like as kubelwagen.
2. The DPS difference by distance is larger than other units, it forces micro. Using the m20 makes the user feel very burdensome.

Advantages of m20:
1. Unilateral attack on an opponent who does not have an anti-vehicle.

Lul at the time it hits the field, only if you play vs USF (non vet rifles), UKF (no snake) or Soviet... Other than that, Ostheer and OKW have pfaut.

It's not that bad, just too expensive.

Lower MP to 220 and increase buildtime so it doesn't come out faster.

lul again, what a nerf. So it comes at the same time with the 222. Today if you´re careful you have the 340mp and fuel when the lieutenant is completed.

Imagine you're in a game where you're getting outmatched, your rifleman can hardly keep any offensive up and your opponent is going to get his first light in the field.

The M20 is here to help, you can apply good pressure, get fast dps(your compare the dps to the 222, did you check the scatter value on each?)

And...you get a free bazooka...

If your opponent is ostheer and happen to get a sniper, you can trade your M20 for it.

It's a expensive unit overall but it does its job.

Lul 222 is simply twice better than the M20 while being twice as cheap. You've got a good imagination, can't deny it, if I was falling back the M20 would be the last unit I build to keep pace with my opponent.

You may want to google the definition of "twice".

But other than that, m20 should see an MP decrease OR come with the skirts free. Maybe taking away the bazooka in exchange for MP reduction would be fair. I pretty much only use the AAHT these days.

So why is the M20 so trashy?

The m20's has a couple of problems that go beyond the dps of the gun.

1) (already mentioned) it is expensive
2) (already mentioned) the mine laying is slow
3) (all credits to Cruzzi, who made me aware of this and in response to the "it's amazing at chasing down squads") the moving accuracy is 50% and therefore its dps is halved when moving
4) (most importantly, in my view) its veterancy is weak and vet 3 is useless: The m20 gains 0 offensive bonuses (over all levels of vet) other than the range increase on the mg at vet 3. Its dps remains the same which means it will only perform worse as other units gain received accuracy bonuses. With the range increase the m20 will fire with 3 dps at 45 instead of 40 range, which is only a good way to get it killed since it reveals itself. Last but not least the increase comes at vet3, something that rarely is reached to begin with. The other vet3 "bonus" adds insult to injury by providing 50% more penetration. The m20's cannot counter any light vehicle other than a kubel and for that it doesn't need vet 3.

Edit: maybe this would be good to be taken into the first post since everyone is busy getting hung up on one thing

What I'd change about it.

1) Reduce the manpower cost slightly.
2) Give it meaningful and useful vet that complements its role. (possible bonuses)

• increase the sight bonus a bit more that it receives with vet (to amplify its role as a scout vehicle and give it purpose late game)
  
• decrease mine laying speed with vet
  
• accuracy bonuses to the gun
  
• decrease its target size and increase its health with vet (similar to 222) so that it becomes harder to hit, increasing its ability to survive
  

3) Make the m20 mine a teller clone with the same price. Immobalise is frustrating to face and the mine, even for that is 10 muni more expensive than a riegel. It also gets rid off the endless discussion of how "insanely powerful" it is.

Fun fact: The m20's supposed good dps is about the same as that of a 251 half track mg (it only does more damage below 5 range, the biggest difference being less than 4 dps difference at 0)

The m20 doesn't have godlike dps vs infantry. You have the AAHT for that. M20 is a sniper counter specialist and yes, the mines are insanely powerful.

m20 mine dmg is same to teller mine

but more expensive 10 muni than teller mine

It's just an exemple.
It can be a good trade, assuming the M20 is hard to preseve, the sniper on the other hand will get on your nerves the whole game.

the M20 doesn't have to die for it.

go play usf first

And dont forget to use M20

m20 mine dmg is same to teller mine

but more expensive 10 muni than teller mine

It causes immobilize, it's the best mine in the game. (same with riegel)

m20 mine dmg is same to teller mine

but more expensive 10 muni than teller mine

seems like u haven't used an m20 mine before. The m20 mine is a riegel mine.

You may want to google the definition of "twice".

But other than that, m20 should see an MP decrease OR come with the skirts free. Maybe taking away the bazooka in exchange for MP reduction would be fair. I pretty much only use the AAHT these days.

Since the 222 does twice the m20 dps at max range while also dealing light AT damage while being a lot cheaper, "twice" is a good adjective.

Because this is not the USF faction you were looking for.

This USF faction needs mortars and slugger tanks.

Though I agree with a cost reduction for the m20 I think the AAHT needs to stop suppressing on the move. THe SU AAHT no longer gets it and u need to spend a lot of munis just for the upgrade.

Reduce the planting time of the mine and give it a recon mode similiar to the T-70.

Reduce the planting time of the mine and give it a recon mode similiar to the T-70.

This ^^^^

It causes immobilize, it's the best mine in the game. (same with riegel)

...only in P4 and below, Panthers, KT's, and other heavies just have their movement slowed.

...only in P4 and below, Panthers, KT's, and other heavies just have their movement slowed.

It immobilizes all armor pieces if it doesn't destroy them.

Though I agree with a cost reduction for the m20 I think the AAHT needs to stop suppressing on the move. THe SU AAHT no longer gets it and u need to spend a lot of munis just for the upgrade.

It doesn't. Only its MGs fire on the move. It has to be stationary to fire the AA gun, which is what suppresses.

The MGs can keep units suppressed, but so can Combat Engineers.

...only in P4 and below, Panthers, KT's, and other heavies just have their movement slowed.

M6 mines deal immobilize critical to every vehicle.

It doesn't. Only its MGs fire on the move. It has to be stationary to fire the AA gun, which is what suppresses.

The MGs can keep units suppressed, but so can Combat Engineers.

The .50 cals also deal significant suppression, while moving. In fact these deal more suppression than an MG 42 if I'm interpreting the tables correctly. It suppresses squads in 1-2 seconds and deals large AOE suppression too. All while moving around.