Artillery Flares of OKW's Special Operations Commander

...It's bad design.

I hear that phrase quite a lot from #TriggeredAlliesUnite. If the game is bad then why o you even care to play? Do you want the game to improve, point problems and give solutions. You can whine all day long and nothing will change. Period.

Flares are just the way they are. As SU, flares are not that annoying but for but for UKF or USF it is since they rely on quite a lot on fordward retreat points. Still OKM suffers quite a lot from "ANY KIND OF FLARE" since they FordwardHQ gets pinpointed fast and Allied factions tend to push real hard early game. That is a hard counter and a hard countered strategy, just change it, or dont. I dont really care

I hear that phrase quite a lot from #TriggeredAlliesUnite. If the game is bad then why o you even care to play? Do you want the game to improve, point problems and give solutions. You can whine all day long and nothing will change. Period.

Flares are just the way they are. As SU, flares are not that annoying but for but for UKF or USF it is since they rely on quite a lot on fordward retreat points. Still OKM suffers quite a lot from "ANY KIND OF FLARE" since they FordwardHQ gets pinpointed fast and Allied factions tend to push real hard early game. That is a hard counter and a hard countered strategy, just change it, or dont. I dont really care

I enjoy this game, I've been playing it for a long time and want it to be the best it can be. I've seen many patches from assault pios to 5 minute T70 to heavy tanks having more rear armour than mediums have front armour. All in all the game is getting better and I want it to continue doing such. Fire anywhere with no drawback ANYTHING is a bad design. It was a bad design when all off maps used to be able to dropped into the fog of war and its a bad design with the flares that cannot be shot down because counter play is incredibly important in a well designed game. As for #trigheralliesunite, if you think I'm an allied fan boy obviously you don't actually care about balance and instead accuse others of your own one-sided mindset. I've advocated for buffs and nerfs for all factions, as unlike you I'm actually interested in all sides being balanced.

And no, okw does not suffer from "any kind of flare" unless the enemy has pushed to your base or you placed them right on the front as ALL other flare abilities have Frontline limotations.

Swap it with a recon plane or make it a variant of the current IR recon elements. As the commander itself lacks strikes there's no particular reason it needs proper LOS. If it's going to be a fire anywhere and can't be shot down THAT should be its advantage, balanced with its own drawback of being Intel only and not scale into team games by allowing anywhere off maps.

Let me put this simple. The ability is not OP, it is its sinergy with other call-ins. End of debate. As for people wanting it to be nerfed. I proposed at least 3 variants to revamp it into a less "exploitable" ability. If none of them suits you, then give your own solutions.

Otherwise Nerf all the game so it dies by once and for all. (Thats what #Alliescrybabies want it seems)

Let me put this simple. The ability is not OP, it is its sinergy with other call-ins. End of debate. As for people wanting it to be nerfed. I proposed at least 3 variants to revamp it into a less "exploitable" ability. If none of them suits you, then give your own solutions.

Otherwise Nerf all the game so it dies by once and for all. (Thats what #Alliescrybabies want it seems)

*shakes head* No. Just, no. The fact that I can drop flares into your base and watch you produce units is indicative of a problem.

"End of debate."

Well, if you say so.

Alright lads! Time to bring back stacking mark target, stacking opel blitz trucks that give EVERYONE resources, unnerf vickers Ks and stuff because synergy to the point of being broken isn't in itself broken! As long as it's fine in a vacuum it's fine outside it! I for one can't wait for games with 40 fuel/munitions from a single point for all my allies.

Nice "solutions", aside bitching and whining...

Somewhat off topic:

This is more or less the argument I used when arguing for the removal of OKW Elite Armor's signal relay.

Basically, some of the people on the team argued that signal relay should be kept because it was useful (some forum posters justified suggestions to remove it by saying it wasn't a useful ability) and that they managed to use it successfully.

I tried to argue that it wasn't a matter of usefulness, cost, timing, or any of those things, it was a matter of game design, interactivity, and fun (for both sides). I compared signal relay to spec ops flares. There is absolutely no way to interact with or counter spec ops flares. There is nothing interesting about using the ability. It is unconditional vision, and your opponent has to just sit there and deal with it. Plane recon (like other have already said) can be shot down - it has clear counters that make it more than a "click and forget" ability. I thought that spec ops flares (too bad #scope) and signal relay (which was in #scope) should not be in the game.

Anyway, my point in saying this is that good game design and interactivity are not irrelevant arguments. It's not really about power level, its about having an interesting ability with interesting counterplay.

It's not really about power level, its about having an interesting ability with interesting counterplay.

To be honest, it is. Signal relay is more akin to tracking, armored detection, infantry detection (or whatever the OH SC vet ability is called), radio silence, radio intercept etc. All which interact directly with minimap information but doesn't provide LoS to benefit other units from it. This and only this aspect is what makes or breaks the ability.

It's all about powerlevel. No one complains about Overwatch or radio intercept, because even if they are passive free abilities, the usefulness is limited.
Signal relay is a useful ability, on a bad commander. Same case with Spy network (Partisan).

Artillery flares are the best recon tool (uncounterable and doesn't provide the same feedback as a recon plane so you are less prepared for it, if used in the backline) in the game, in one of the most meta commanders across the OKW life. If it was say part of Overwatch or any commander focused on intel with a niche more use or not as good, it would probably be overlooked or argue that you have to pick a "weaker" commander in order to enable other allies offmap with vision.


Nerfing the ability depends on what you want to accomplish.

-If the main component is intel and not boosting/enabling other offmap you can change it to be cheaper and provide minimap info or tracking of the units in a zone without providing LOS for offamps.
-If it's to avoid constant bombarding of onfgoing abilities such as loiter planes and ramping artillery, the LoS time should be reduce drastically while still giving opportunity for other type of "1 shot" offmaps.
-If you want to keep it as it is and the ability is consider OP, increase the cost of it to be highest of all recon tools.

Nerfing the ability depends on what you want to accomplish.

-If the main component is intel and not boosting/enabling other offmap you can change it to be cheaper and provide minimap info or tracking of the units in a zone without providing LOS for offamps.
-If it's to avoid constant bombarding of onfgoing abilities such as loiter planes and ramping artillery, the LoS time should be reduce drastically while still giving opportunity for other type of "1 shot" offmaps.
-If you want to keep it as it is and the ability is consider OP, increase the cost of it to be highest of all recon tools.

Or simply make it riflenade from volks or from Leig.

Or simply make it riflenade from volks or from Leig.

At that point, you are just removing the ability all together

Dudes, I think all flares nned to have between 2 and 4 seconds of "Ilumination" is the only way to get at least some balance to this., Just a flash, no more than that., if the flared guy see it can change their units placement to try to avoid the arty

At that point, you are just removing the ability all together

Why is that?

I'm actually for the ISG just having this as a default vet 1 ability by stock.

Why is that?

I'm actually for the ISG just having this as a default vet 1 ability by stock.

Nerf too big. At least in the first case.

-I don't think i have seen competitive games with people using flares on infantry units. Not at a point which is relevant.

-In the case of ISG, it could work but i don't know if the tools are there for simply "copy pasting" Soviet flares into ISG.


Also most people don't like when abilities are completely removed (see the case in revamp rework).

Let me put this simple. The ability is not OP, it is its sinergy with other call-ins. End of debate. As for people wanting it to be nerfed. I proposed at least 3 variants to revamp it into a less "exploitable" ability. If none of them suits you, then give your own solutions.

Otherwise Nerf all the game so it dies by once and for all. (Thats what #Alliescrybabies want it seems)

How would you, playing allies, counter the enemy flare? What unit/strategy/ability would you use to counter it?

Generally, everything has a counter of some sort. This ability lacks that. Hence the issue.

How would you, playing allies, counter the enemy flare? What unit/strategy/ability would you use to counter it?

Generally, everything has a counter of some sort. This ability lacks that. Hence the issue.

The only issue is that it can be dropped anywhere. The Soviet mortar or sniper flare is equally uncounterable and all one can do is move units around to negate the effects of the spotting a bit, although these are more balanced because they have limited range.

The only thing I would change is to make the specops flares only dropable in frontline enemy territory somehow. Basically the flare could only extend field of view that your units already established. A bit like the British flare ability works, only not map-wide. Maybe turn it into an ability that boosts units view range by 2x for 30 seconds or something as this achieves the same effects as lighting up the front line. The flares would drop as a clue to the enemy.

The only issue is that it can be dropped anywhere. The Soviet mortar or sniper flare is equally uncounterable and all one can do is move units around to negate the effects of the spotting a bit, although these are more balanced because they have limited range.

The only thing I would change is to make the specops flares only dropable in frontline enemy territory somehow. Basically the flare could only extend field of view that your units already established. A bit like the British flare ability works, only not map-wide. Maybe turn it into an ability that boosts units view range by 2x for 30 seconds or something as this achieves the same effects as lighting up the front line. The flares would drop as a clue to the enemy.

Well, that is exactly the issue.

Seems like the better solution would be to just change it to a recon loiter IMO. That way you still get the full recon functionality (it can be frustrating to only be able to recon the front lines and IMO the flares are partially meant for behind the lines recon too, but are just too cheesy as they are uncounterable and provide better vision than recon planes, whether they’re passes or loiters) without it being uncounterable and superior in every way to recon planes. The solution you presented does definitely have merits though, especially for spotting with isgs or Stukas.

Also most people don't like when abilities are completely removed (see the case in revamp rework).

Relic nerfing them to the point that the might as well have been removed is a greater possibility than actually removing them and replacing them with something useful. See demo charges for the most recent example