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About soviet shock troops in WWII

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Vipper
19 Oct 2018, 16:12 PM
#61
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 16:07 PMKirrik


You're beyond pathetic at this point with your trolling.
Katitof already pointed out that "Shock" Army (which is mistranslation) and Shock Troops arent the same thing.

At this point you are the one trolling and turning a thread into personal issue.

I have never claimed that shock armies and shock troops are the same thing, especially since an army is different thing than troops and shock troops may be a part if a Shock army. Actually in game all Shock commanders (including Soviet Shock army) come with Shock troops.

PLS stop putting word in my mouth. That does not change the fact that Shock troops are OFFENSIVE oriented units both in real life and in game.

I have little to add so have a nice day.
:)
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Kirrik
19 Oct 2018, 16:17 PM
#62
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Posts: 573

You just claimed something about mythical Shock Troops in your previous posts and been told directly - they didnt exist.
What we have in game is literally based of assault engineer-sapper squads which is obvious from armor they are wearing.
Now that you've been told of gruesome reality of non-existance of "Shock Troops" squads you've been refencing all the time... can stop making things up?
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Vipper
19 Oct 2018, 16:21 PM
#63
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 16:17 PMKirrik
You just claimed something about mythical Shock Troops in your previous posts and been told directly - they didnt exist.
What we have in game is literally based of assault engineer-sapper squads which is obvious from armor they are wearing.
Now that you've been told of gruesome reality of non-existance of "Shock Troops" squads you've been refencing all the time... can stop making things up?

At this point you simply have to argue your case with wikipedia:

"Shock troops or assault troops are formations created to lead an attack. They are often better trained and equipped than other infantry, and expected to take heavy casualties even in successful operations."
and guess what Soviet shock armies are included in the explanation of shock troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops

The simple fact remains shock troops are offensive assault troops.


:)
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Tobis
19 Oct 2018, 16:23 PM
#64
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 16:21 PMVipper

At this point you simply have to argue your case with wikipedia:

"Shock troops or assault troops are formations created to lead an attack. They are often better trained and equipped than other infantry, and expected to take heavy casualties even in successful operations."
and guess what Soviet shock armies are included in the explanation of shock troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops



Remember in the first mission in the campaign, when you are fighting in Stalingrad? Your only units are shock troops. Pretty commonly called the defense of Stalingrad. I would call Stalingrad urban, too.
Tobis "Complete Throw"

Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.

Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup :snfBarton:
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Kirrik
19 Oct 2018, 16:24 PM
#65
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Posts: 573

Shock Troops are non-Russian term, yes I know. I've told you several posts before that it merely refers to any sort of assault infantry... so anything else you want to add aside of repeating of what I said before?

I guess you missed the rather obvious point of my post: No such thing as "Shock troops" existed in soviet army, its English umbrella term - nothing more.
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Vipper
19 Oct 2018, 16:27 PM
#66
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 16:24 PMKirrik
Shock Troops are non-Russian term, yes I know. I've told you several posts before that it merely refers to any sort of assault infantry... so anything else you want to add aside of repeating of what I said before?

And thus offensive assault troops used by soviet during WWII fall under the category of Shock troops.

Which is my point from post 1, shock troops both in real life and in game are offensive troops.
:)
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Kirrik
19 Oct 2018, 16:28 PM
#67
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Posts: 573

Oh Vipper, by that definition every single soviet unit including engineers with flamethower and conscripts with PPSh and Penals are Shock Troops. I guess we just cant have them in doctrine called Urban DEFENSE... instead it should get Guards... because that sounds defensive enough.
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murky depths
19 Oct 2018, 16:50 PM
#68
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Posts: 607

He protec, but also he attac

he is shock truuppe
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Vipper
19 Oct 2018, 17:20 PM
#69
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 16:23 PMTobis

Remember in the first mission in the campaign, when you are fighting in Stalingrad? Your only units are shock troops. Pretty commonly called the defense of Stalingrad. I would call Stalingrad urban, too.

I am not sure what your point is but the following question will help us move on.

Are shock troops in game offensive oriented units?

Are Shock troops in real life offensive oriented units?

If the answer is yes I have nothing to add. If the answer is no check the Wikipedia link I have provided.
:)
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Crecer13
19 Oct 2018, 18:31 PM
#70
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Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 16:21 PMVipper

At this point you simply have to argue your case with wikipedia:

"Shock troops or assault troops are formations created to lead an attack. They are often better trained and equipped than other infantry, and expected to take heavy casualties even in successful operations."
and guess what Soviet shock armies are included in the explanation of shock troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops

The simple fact remains shock troops are offensive assault troops.




Shock troops existed only in the Tsarist Army.
In the Red Army there were only Shock Armies - these were reinforced Armies as part of the shock army there were up to 20 rifle divisions (the usual army of 9-12 divisions), the soldiers of the Shock Army did not have the title Shock Troops, such as the Guards Armies had the title Guards.

The structure of the Shock Armies included the usual rifle and tank divisions, they did not have a title, for example: the shock rifle division.

About gaming shock troops, it would be cool to go back to the old concept: when the shock troops came with rifles. But now they will come out with six SVT-40s and have two upgrade options:
- Two DP-27
- replace rifles with six PPSh-41 as it was at the start of the game.
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Vipper
19 Oct 2018, 20:57 PM
#71
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 18:31 PMCrecer13

Shock troops existed only in the Tsarist Army.
...

Shock troops is a general description of troops of many armies tasked to lead assaults and breach the enemy lines.

Soviet units tasked with that role where not designed as "shock troops" according the Soviet army terminology but they had the role and they fall and the general category.

Both in real life and in game "shock troops" are offensively orient troops thus the claim that "shocks are just as much defensive as offensive" is simply silly, untrue and misleading. PLS move on.
:)
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Lago
19 Oct 2018, 21:26 PM
#72
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Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 11:22 AMVipper

I have provided my feedback about shocks and KV-2 in urban defense as requested, I have no problem and I am not upset, however imo the changes are simply in wrong direction.
I have also suggested alternatives.


You can't complain about it and say you've got no problem with it at the same time. That doesn't make any sense.
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Vipper
19 Oct 2018, 22:02 PM
#73
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 21:26 PMLago

You can't complain about it and say you've got no problem with it at the same time. That doesn't make any sense.

I am not complaining about it, I have provided my feedback on as commander as requested.

This thread is not about me but about Shock troops, pls try to focus on the topic and not me personally.
:)
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LoopDloop
20 Oct 2018, 01:52 AM
#74
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Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 16:05 PMVipper

No, the reason why this thread was created was to move an off topic debate out of the feedback thread and to explain the role in game and in real life of shock troops.

I have replied to the argument that assault troops can be used defensively in previous post, pls try to read before jumping in into a debate and restarting a debate that has run its course.

The fact is quite simple shock troops in real life and in game are offensive oriented assault troops.

Cool. Point being? Was the entire purpose of the thread just to say “I think shocks are offensive troops and nothing have a nice day?”
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Vipper
20 Oct 2018, 06:26 AM
#75
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jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2018, 01:52 AMLoopDloop

Cool. Point being? Was the entire purpose of the thread just to say “I think shocks are offensive troops and nothing have a nice day?”

I have responded to the same questions in posts 1(/title),16 and 59, I also have to point that even moderators suggested that this thread should be used instead of the feedback thread if anyone wanted to continue arguing about Shock troops.

Now PLS move on.
:)
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LoopDloop
20 Oct 2018, 23:35 PM
#76
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Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2018, 06:26 AMVipper

I have responded to the same questions in posts 1(/title),16 and 59, I also have to point that even moderators suggested that this thread should be used instead of the feedback thread if anyone wanted to continue arguing about Shock troops.

Now PLS move on.

Yes but what is the basis of your argument? What is the point you are trying to make? Are you trying to say that because shocks are offensive troops they shouldn't be in urban defense? Or do you just want to say, as I already said in the previous post you quoted "I think shocks are offensive troops and nothing have a nice day?" Because motive is important in discussions.

It's like if I said, "Coffee is hot", proved why coffee is hot, and elaborated no further; as oposed to if I said "Coffee is hot", proved why coffee is hot, and stated that as a result of coffee being hot, there should be a warning on the cup or whatever.

I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but it doesn't look like you gave a reason for the argument of shocks being offensive troops. I'm just trying to understand what your point is.
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Vipper
21 Oct 2018, 00:23 AM
#77
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jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2018, 23:35 PMLoopDloop

Yes but what is the basis of your argument? What is the point you are trying to make? Are you trying to say that because shocks are offensive troops they shouldn't be in urban defense? Or do you just want to say, as I already said in the previous post you quoted "I think shocks are offensive troops and nothing have a nice day?" Because motive is important in discussions.
...

All these questions have already been answered in post 51.

Some people do not actually want be in a discussion, they are simply forum warriors who will argue for the sake of arguing and they tend to end up making silly claims which are inaccurate both historically and in game. This causes misinformation.

This only one example:
"shocks are just as much defensive as offensive"

It is my opinion that the forum should be a place, where one that reads the post becomes more informed instead of misinformed. This thread was create to clarify Shock troops role both in real life and in game.

Now if you want to discuss anything remotely related to Shock troops pls feel free to do, the rest are simply of topic and I have little intention of derailing this thread once more.
:)
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LemonJuice
21 Oct 2018, 00:56 AM
#78
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Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

shocks can be just as defensive though, especially on close quarters areas, it can be almost impossible for infantry to take points if there are shocks hiding behind shot blockers.
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Kasarov
21 Oct 2018, 03:42 AM
#79
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Defensive shocks camping in the castle of Lorch Assault kappa

To add to the discussion, I think Shocks fit thematically because they are best on urban maps, and on urban maps Shocks have smoke for flanking MG garrison, frag to deny cover, and can clear garrisons up close with their SMGs. They're the best urban unit the soviets have and until that changes, I think they're fine in the doctrine as is.

Arguing over the "defense" in urban combat is fairly pointless. In urban combat, the line is always changing, and counterattacks should be part of the defense. The Soviets have nothing better suited other than Shock Troops.

That being said, I would be totally okay with just replacing shocks with Cons PPsH. That also fits the CQB theme.
jump backJump back to quoted post12 May 2017, 05:02 AMKasarov

Japan:
-no unit preservation ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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LeOverlord
21 Oct 2018, 06:04 AM
#80
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Posts: 310

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2018, 17:12 PMLago


Isn't urban combat close quarters?


This is the definition of Close Quarters Combat :

Close quarters combat (CQC) is a tactical concept that involves physical confrontation between several combatants. It can take place between military units, police/corrections and criminals, and other similar scenarios. In warfare, it usually consists of small units or teams engaging the enemy with personal weapons at very short range, up to 100 meters, from proximity hand-to-hand combat to close-quarter target negotiation with short-range firearms. In the typical close quarters combat scenario, the attackers try a very fast, violent takeover of a vehicle or structure controlled by the defenders, who usually have no easy way to withdraw. Because enemies, hostages/civilians, and fellow operators can be closely intermingled, close quarters combat demands a rapid assault and a precise application of lethal force. The operators need great proficiency with their weapons, and the ability to make split-second decisions in order to minimize accidental casualties.
"L is for L Shaped Ambush"
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