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Should the M5 HT get some balance love?

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Joshua85
12 Sep 2018, 12:53 PM
#1
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I know it's a near impossible mission to make every unit and vehicle appealing, but I don't think I'm exaterating when I say that it is less than one in fifty games where I see anyone building a M5 from the Tankoviy in 1v1 games.

The reason for this is probably partly that it is outshined by the t-70 and that the soviets have easy access to other means of suppression, but it certainly didn't help that they removed the ability to suppress whilst moving.

If we do a quick brainstorm can we then perhaps come up with some sugesstions on how this might become more popular without becomming a cheesewagon?

Btw. I was unsure where to put this, so if any mods feel this is better in the balance section, then feel free to do so :)
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ShadowLinkX37
12 Sep 2018, 15:45 PM
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It is true it is outshined by the T70 entirely, but the redeeming factor of the M5 is it is the best AA in the game. Since AA ability is *cough* poorly *cough* designed by RoF alone, the M5 which has insane RoF with the meatgrinder upgrade is the best. Even if we nerfed the t70, WHICH WE'RE NOT FOR SOME FUCKING REASON BECAUSE 85 SIGHT RANGE AT VET 3 IS BALANCED it would still be outshined because the t70 is more durable and can engage light armor if need be, where the m5 meatgrinder cannot.
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ferwiner
12 Sep 2018, 16:32 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 15:45 PMShadowLinkX37
It is true it is outshined by the T70 entirely, but the redeeming factor of the M5 is it is the best AA in the game. Since AA ability is *cough* poorly *cough* designed by RoF alone, the M5 which has insane RoF with the meatgrinder upgrade is the best. Even if we nerfed the t70, WHICH WE'RE NOT FOR SOME FUCKING REASON BECAUSE 85 SIGHT RANGE AT VET 3 IS BALANCED it would still be outshined because the t70 is more durable and can engage light armor if need be, where the m5 meatgrinder cannot.


AA is not dictated by RoF alone. Each AA weapon also has different chance of shooting down the plane with one bullet. If what you are saying was true, the pintle MGs would be better at AA than ostwind and yet they are not.

As for the topic, there is an easy way to make M5 viable. Give it 20 hp more. Then nerf its penetration and dps. That way it is not going to be dead the moment it sees an AT gun, but it will also struggle against shrecks, fausts and other LVs like 222 or luchs. Right now it is very hard to judge ballance wise as it is pretty much OP against infantry and 222, but it also can't stand a single pak on the field.
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ShadowLinkX37
12 Sep 2018, 16:40 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 16:32 PMferwiner


AA is not dictated by RoF alone. Each AA weapon also has different chance of shooting down the plane with one bullet. If what you are saying was true, the pintle MGs would be better at AA than ostwind and yet they are not.

As for the topic, there is an easy way to make M5 viable. Give it 20 hp more. Then nerf its penetration and dps. That way it is not going to be dead the moment it sees an AT gun, but it will also struggle against shrecks, fausts and other LVs like 222 or luchs. Right now it is very hard to judge ballance wise as it is pretty much OP against infantry and 222, but it also can't stand a single pak on the field.


I'm not entirely sure if that's true, because if it was then why the hell didn't they make ostwinds have far higher chance to hit aircraft? Right now the ostwind is pretty mediocre in terms of AA, which makes axis AA pretty mediocre. Yes OKW have the schwer and it's "free fuck-off cannon" but that's horribly inconsistant. Personally I hate that big free cannon, but the faction needs some design changes.

Essentially: If it is dependant on bullet size and not just RoF, we're either missing a factor that hampered the balance team when the AA changes went through or they really messed up on balancing that.
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ferwiner
12 Sep 2018, 16:52 PM
#5
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 16:40 PMShadowLinkX37


I'm not entirely sure if that's true, because if it was then why the hell didn't they make ostwinds have far higher chance to hit aircraft? Right now the ostwind is pretty mediocre in terms of AA, which makes axis AA pretty mediocre. Yes OKW have the schwer and it's "free fuck-off cannon" but that's horribly inconsistant. Personally I hate that big free cannon, but the faction needs some design changes.

Essentially: If it is dependant on bullet size and not just RoF, we're either missing a factor that hampered the balance team when the AA changes went through or they really messed up on balancing that.


As far as I remember the teachings of cruzzi, there are 4 factors that affect performance of AA gun:
1. The probability to shoot down with a bullet (0 for bofors)
2. The RoF
3. The range of AA weapon - different from the range against ground targets
4. The turning speed of the weapon.
All of them affect the performance pretty significantly and they also determine the way a gun should be used. For example quickly turning MGs can be used right where the plane is, but guns with more range and less turning speed should be positioned further from the planes or they will just rotate not able to track target and thus not fire at full potential.

I think the ballance reasoning for ostwind performance is simply that ostheer right now has the most sources of non-specialised AA. The popularity of 222s and tanks with pintle is so high that buffing ostwind AA could actually upset the ballance in the skies.

Tbh though, I think this thread is about the M5 ;)
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JZuna
12 Sep 2018, 17:22 PM
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None of the halftracks can survive more than one AT gun shot and the OKW flack HT suffers from the same problem as the M5 being out shined by the light tank, however both US and OKW use projectiles so they can deal damage from long range.

M5 needs too get closer to deal damage but a HP buff right of the bat might make a bit too strong, maybe hp bonus on its veterancy like vet2 at least then the opponent has a chance to counter with just 2 at gun shots for a while, also might not be a bad idea to give HP bonus to the other halftracks veterancy.
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Joshua85
12 Sep 2018, 17:49 PM
#7
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 17:22 PMJZuna
None of the halftracks can survive more than one AT gun shot and the OKW flack HT suffers from the same problem as the M5 being out shined by the light tank, however both US and OKW use projectiles so they can deal damage from long range.

M5 needs too get closer to deal damage but a HP buff right of the bat might make a bit too strong, maybe hp bonus on its veterancy like vet2 at least then the opponent has a chance to counter with just 2 at gun shots for a while, also might not be a bad idea to give HP bonus to the other halftracks veterancy.


OKW has significantly better defensive performance though, as it both suppress way better and can call down insta-smoke when put under fire. the high DPS of the m5 isn't very helpfull if it still allows units to fire at it unharrassed. without at least proper suppression, chances are you will never see vet 2 and thus it is still not worth the risk.
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Joshua85
12 Sep 2018, 17:50 PM
#8
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 15:45 PMShadowLinkX37
It is true it is outshined by the T70 entirely, but the redeeming factor of the M5 is it is the best AA in the game. Since AA ability is *cough* poorly *cough* designed by RoF alone, the M5 which has insane RoF with the meatgrinder upgrade is the best. Even if we nerfed the t70, WHICH WE'RE NOT FOR SOME FUCKING REASON BECAUSE 85 SIGHT RANGE AT VET 3 IS BALANCED it would still be outshined because the t70 is more durable and can engage light armor if need be, where the m5 meatgrinder cannot.


Can you remember the last time you built an M5 in a 1v1?
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ferwiner
12 Sep 2018, 17:59 PM
#9
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 17:49 PMJoshua85


OKW has significantly better defensive performance though, as it both suppress way better and can call down insta-smoke when put under fire. the high DPS of the m5 isn't very helpfull if it still allows units to fire at it unharrassed. without at least proper suppression, chances are you will never see vet 2 and thus it is still not worth the risk.


Yeah, the smoke is what makes the huge difference. The problem is that, by design, soviet vehicles have no smoke on them, so it must be something else. Either HP buff or old-t70 style small repair on the go.
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ShadowLinkX37
12 Sep 2018, 18:02 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 17:50 PMJoshua85


Can you remember the last time you built an M5 in a 1v1?


In a 1v1? no, but if I would it would be for AA ability and that alone. As you said, it is inferior to the T70 in almost every way. The problem there is that in 1v1 axis don't really need/use aircraft outside of Stuka CAS. Also to mention meta commanders changes what loiters and aircraft are available.

But when was the last time you built a a JT or IRHT in 1v1.... somethings are just meant for teamgames.
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ferwiner
12 Sep 2018, 18:05 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 18:02 PMShadowLinkX37


In a 1v1? no, but if I would it would be for AA ability and that alone. As you said, it is inferior to the T70 in almost every way.


I think the difference in performance between the two is overestimated. It is of course worse, but it is also much cheaper in fuel and thus comes earlier. I would love to use M5s in 1v1s, even as non-meta strategy, but they need just a tiny bit of ballancing touch for that.
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BeastHunter
12 Sep 2018, 18:23 PM
#12
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The manpower cost could be looked at as teh t70 is currently cheaper in that aspect and if you are blleding and need a light vehicle to get back in your game its is cheaper and safer to just get a t70 for 260 mp and 70 fuel instead of 270 mp and 30 fuel + 100 ammo and upgrade time. Lowering the mp cost would also allow it to get used as a forward mobile reinforcement point.
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Joshua85
12 Sep 2018, 21:04 PM
#13
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 18:02 PMShadowLinkX37


In a 1v1? no, but if I would it would be for AA ability and that alone. As you said, it is inferior to the T70 in almost every way. The problem there is that in 1v1 axis don't really need/use aircraft outside of Stuka CAS. Also to mention meta commanders changes what loiters and aircraft are available.

But when was the last time you built a a JT or IRHT in 1v1.... somethings are just meant for teamgames.


Weeeell I don't really think a doctrinal thing like the JT is directly comparable to a standard vehicle like the M5 and the IR HT, while still a rare sight, is used waay more often than the M5, even in high level games on twitch where I've seen both Stuve and VonIvan using them.
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LoopDloop
12 Sep 2018, 21:49 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 16:40 PMShadowLinkX37


I'm not entirely sure if that's true, because if it was then why the hell didn't they make ostwinds have far higher chance to hit aircraft? Right now the ostwind is pretty mediocre in terms of AA, which makes axis AA pretty mediocre. Yes OKW have the schwer and it's "free fuck-off cannon" but that's horribly inconsistant. Personally I hate that big free cannon, but the faction needs some design changes.

Essentially: If it is dependant on bullet size and not just RoF, we're either missing a factor that hampered the balance team when the AA changes went through or they really messed up on balancing that.

222 is actually kinda decent AA in my experience. I’ve seen it shoot down the (very easy to hit) Soviet cargo planes on its own.

Wasn’t there some balance patch a long time ago that was supposed to fix the whole AA design? What ever happened to that?
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ShadowLinkX37
12 Sep 2018, 22:30 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 21:49 PMLoopDloop

222 is actually kinda decent AA in my experience. I’ve seen it shoot down the (very easy to hit) Soviet cargo planes on its own.

Wasn’t there some balance patch a long time ago that was supposed to fix the whole AA design? What ever happened to that?


To my knowledge they just made planes easier to shoot down via AA units based on RoF. Which made the M5 meatgrinder, centaur and USF AAHT, and the OKW AAHT all pretty decent against aircraft. anything that uses a 37mm for AA though seems to have gotten no buffs, as well as the bofors. That's my explaination because some units work, some units don't.
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zerocoh
12 Sep 2018, 23:51 PM
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I love the M5 for using it as a reinforce point and for light infantry support. surround the M5 with guards and ATs and you will be good for the entire mid-game
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Joshua85
13 Sep 2018, 07:09 AM
#17
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 23:51 PMzerocoh
I love the M5 for using it as a reinforce point and for light infantry support. surround the M5 with guards and ATs and you will be good for the entire mid-game


Have you done this recently? It's an interesting idea that I have considered, but I concluded that it was too risky due to the low health and paper armor of the M5.

However with the new Commissar retreat point, perhaps this could become more viable, though IMO it will still be a lot worse than the much cheaper german semi-equivalent SdKfz 251.
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LimaOscarMike
13 Sep 2018, 07:33 AM
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M5 is the best AA in the game no doubt but let be honest it is broken LUL my vote is to buff overdrive to improve its survivality and match its AA capability to another AA units
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Joshua85
13 Sep 2018, 07:47 AM
#19
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2018, 07:33 AMLimaOscarMike
M5 is the best AA in the game no doubt but let be honest it is broken LUL my vote is to buff overdrive to improve its survivality and match its AA capability to another AA units


Will that be enough for the current pricetag though?
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Dangerous-Cloth
13 Sep 2018, 09:22 AM
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This unit has to be approached very carefully. It used to be the most overpowered unit in the game, being able to reinforce whilst having the quad upgrade and having insane suppression. Flame HT used to be this op too.

These units will never be balanced..
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