How to fix UKF: Unit overview

We keep hearing about this great comet AI, maybe I am really trapped in a patch from two years ago

I've not seen Hans or any other pro player touch them in months in a serious game.

It isn't anything special. I've advocated for both comet and cromwell buffs previously, but what I mean when I say that is that, in comparison to the JP4 which cannot engage in AI hardly at all, the comet does at least have some potential and utility in that department.

The problem is not that Jackson can fight PzIV but that it can fight the majority of axis vehicles effectively.

In the case of PzIV the problem is that the chance to hit and penetrate a PzIV is very high even at max range while it not easy to be flanked like the SU-85 or have slow ROF like FF.

M-36 performance is part of the reason that M-10 which is a cost efficient unit sees little action.

TD should actually be separated to those best fitted vs medium tanks and those better fitted to fight heavy tanks.

There isn’t a TD that performs poorly overall against other any other tanks though. Why only the Jackson should be made to be such doesn’t really make sense. Sure, it’s faster and has a turret, but all the other TDs have some sort of advantage as well. JPIV can camo and has good armor, making it riskier to attempt to engage frontally, while the SU85 has very long range free self spotting and the firefly has tulips and somewhat longer sight range with the tank commander upgrade . Even stug has TWP and is at least very cost effective and puts out a lot of raw DPS still. It also has a pintle and can shoot down planes (sometimes) but that’s largely irrelevant. Jackson is also the second most expensive TD after the firefly (why firefly is still the most expensive is beyond me but whatever).

Alright folks, let's try to stay on topic and try not to bash each other's brains in.

I would argue the firefly performs pretty poorly as a tank destroyer in it's self. It's an investment.

Most axis armour can 1v1 a firefly, the only thing the firefly is good for is backstopping your line with the at gun to make panthers think twice about diving, It's exceptionally poor against light vehicles due to it's awful firerate combined with the accuracy penalties light vehicles get, would lose to most axis armour (until vet 2) 1 on 1 other than an OST panzer 4 and if you lose your vetted fireflies late game, you'll probably get rolled because panthers are great straight out of the box whereas fireflies pretty much require vet 2 or using tulips when supported by other AT. So with what people were talking about with "It's not surprising a dedicated tank destroyer can beat a multi role medium" The panther which basically has the same role as the comet and it's pintle mount MG is pretty good can quite happily duel a firefly and win and isn't the firefly a dedicated tank destroyer with virtually no anti infantry? If the panther can do it, why is it so unthinkable the comet doing it? They both cost far more than any tank destroyer. The firefly does however scale well with vet and can fight KTs well.

Brits have a strange layout at the moment in that seemingly all of their units are either an investment in that they require veterancy in order to be useful (i.e.- centaur, firefly, tommies) or they have extremely weak veterancy (i.e.- comet) It basically results in unit losses being extremely costly to the brits and getting their replacement to that rank in the end game virtually impossible due to poor base stats. Or alternatively in the case of the comet, unable to scale into the late game so not worth getting.

This makes brits pretty poor early/mid game due to lack of vet and then pretty strong late game unless you get wiped in which case there is kind of a tendency for brits to curl up and die as UKF's units perform awfully against other units without vet, especially when the enemy has vet.

I would argue the firefly performs pretty poorly as a tank destroyer in it's self. It's an investment.

Most axis armour can 1v1 a firefly, the only thing the firefly is good for is backstopping your line with the at gun to make panthers think twice about diving, It's exceptionally poor against light vehicles due to it's awful firerate combined with the accuracy penalties light vehicles get, would lose to most axis armour (until vet 2) 1 on 1 other than an OST panzer 4 and if you lose your vetted fireflies late game, you'll probably get rolled because panthers are great straight out of the box whereas fireflies pretty much require vet 2 or using tulips when supported by other AT. So with what people were talking about with "It's not surprising a dedicated tank destroyer can beat a multi role medium" The panther which basically has the same role as the comet and it's pintle mount MG is pretty good can quite happily duel a firefly and win and isn't the firefly a dedicated tank destroyer with virtually no anti infantry? If the panther can do it, why is it so unthinkable the comet doing it? They both cost far more than any tank destroyer. The firefly does however scale well with vet and can fight KTs well.

Brits have a strange layout at the moment in that seemingly all of their units are either an investment in that they require veterancy in order to be useful (i.e.- centaur, firefly, tommies) or they have extremely weak veterancy (i.e.- comet) It basically results in unit losses being extremely costly to the brits and getting their replacement to that rank in the end game virtually impossible due to poor base stats. Or alternatively in the case of the comet, unable to scale into the late game so not worth getting.

This makes brits pretty poor early/mid game due to lack of vet and then pretty strong late game unless you get wiped in which case there is kind of a tendency for brits to curl up and die as UKF's units perform awfully against other units without vet, especially when the enemy has vet.

The current FF problems can be traced back to DBP which I think were the wrong call when the role is supposed to be a slow heavy hitter

Show Spoiler

These were arguably bigger changes than the old Vet 3 nerf it got, having a 10 second reload but having your accuracy nerfed so heavily can cause some obvious issues. Like a 440mp 155f TD being frontally dived by pumas and mediums and not standing a chance when it misses it's first shot. The accuracy on a Jackson or Panther for example might not be great either but these tanks have noticeably better mobility and reload.

Possibly with sapper snare this will help the FF indirectly, but I think it's probably worth a cost decrease or having the accuracy back to stop so many frustrating moments with missing shots on a medium and waiting an eternity to reload. Panzer 4's should fear a FF, not the other way around.

Your point with the FF still being good against the KT backs up my argument I think, the KT being so big and slow (also easy to hit with tulips compared to a mobile medium) makes those nerfs not felt as heavily. But unlucky for UKF we are currently in a medium tank and panther meta, not a KT one.

...
These were arguably bigger changes than the old Vet 3 nerf it got, having a 10 second reload but having your accuracy nerfed so heavily can cause some obvious issues. ....

Have you actually calculated Fireflies chance to hit vs a PzIV?

Have you actually calculated Fireflies chance to hit vs a PzIV?

How about you calculate why I should invest 440mp 155f into a TD that needs to spend 10 seconds reloading when I miss a vehicle.

How about you calculate why I should invest 440mp 155f into a TD that needs to spend 10 seconds reloading when I miss a vehicle.

The claim that firefly has low accuracy is simply wrong. FF is one of the most accurate TDs out there.

The reason it has high reload is that it can fire Tulips that allows it to kill a medium tank with 1 reload. (and the reload is 8 secs not 10)

The current FF problems can be traced back to DBP which I think were the wrong call when the role is supposed to be a slow heavy hitter

Show Spoiler

These were arguably bigger changes than the old Vet 3 nerf it got, having a 10 second reload but having your accuracy nerfed so heavily can cause some obvious issues. Like a 440mp 155f TD being frontally dived by pumas and mediums and not standing a chance when it misses it's first shot. The accuracy on a Jackson or Panther for example might not be great either but these tanks have noticeably better mobility and reload.

Possibly with sapper snare this will help the FF indirectly, but I think it's probably worth a cost decrease or having the accuracy back to stop so many frustrating moments with missing shots on a medium and waiting an eternity to reload. Panzer 4's should fear a FF, not the other way around.

Your point with the FF still being good against the KT backs up my argument I think, the KT being so big and slow (also easy to hit with tulips compared to a mobile medium) makes those nerfs not felt as heavily. But unlucky for UKF we are currently in a medium tank and panther meta, not a KT one.

Yeah that's definitely the issue, Is right now the firefly is lacking but with snares and a bit of vet the firefly will be verging into "reeee relic nerf plox" territory due it's damage, accuracy and pen chance which once players can't just drive away from will be extremely powerful.

And yeah, I think the only real reason to get a KT over 2 panthers right now is if you go elite armour for HEAT rounds letting you 2 shot most allied armour XD.

@vipper, the firefly with tulips has high alpha damage yes, but definitely doesn't kill anything by it's self, unless you have 2 of them. And using the tulips results in an even longer reload penalty so tulips aren't snares or alpha damage, they're for finishing off retreating tanks. If you use tulips, the firefly that used them gets an extra several seconds added to it's already obscene reload time.

Also the ability to 2 shot a medium with tulips I wouldn't describe as particularly powerful as everyone builds panthers atm which don't get 2 shot+tulipped, (I've seen a few panzer 4 users recently too, but most people change to panthers later on.)

Like I said, the firefly is an investment, it becomes very powerful once you have a couple of them or when they get vetted, but because it's so weak alone and unvetted I think perhaps it could do with a cost decrease, perhaps back to what it used to be at 145 fuel and maybe 400mp?

@vipper, the firefly with tulips has high alpha damage yes, but definitely doesn't kill anything by it's self, unless you have 2 of them....

I simply point out that the claim that FF is inaccurate is simply false and had to respond to another claim about the high reload time.

The fact that FF does 200 damage and can fire Tulips makes the unit having a comparable DPS to other TDs even with the high reload time, and the DPS also improve significantly with veterancy.

A lone FF will kill a medium tank with one reload +2 Tulips if they land.

If one wanted to touch the unit one would have to take into account all parameters effecting the vehicle like time to hit the field, Tulips, sight, accuracy, vet bonuses and access to other tools like war speed and hammer trucking.

There isn’t a TD that performs poorly overall against other any other tanks though. Why only the Jackson should be made to be such doesn’t really make sense. Sure, it’s faster and has a turret, but all the other TDs have some sort of advantage as well. JPIV can camo and has good armor, making it riskier to attempt to engage frontally, while the SU85 has very long range free self spotting and the firefly has tulips and somewhat longer sight range with the tank commander upgrade . Even stug has TWP and is at least very cost effective and puts out a lot of raw DPS still. It also has a pintle and can shoot down planes (sometimes) but that’s largely irrelevant. Jackson is also the second most expensive TD after the firefly (why firefly is still the most expensive is beyond me but whatever).

Jackson has mobility. Something other 60 range TDs lack. It has the freedom to engage in favour able terms. It can be used on the offensive if you want.
Thing is if you treat it like the other slow case mate TDs it still performs quite well, but the skill cap on the Jackson is above and beyond all other TDs. Any other TD that gets jumped is likley dead, the Jackson not only has a chance to escape, but bloody well might win.

I simply point out that the claim that FF is inaccurate is simply false and had to respond to another claim about the high reload time.

The fact that FF does 200 damage and can fire Tulips makes the unit having a comparable DPS to other TDs even with the high reload time, and the DPS also improve significantly with veterancy.

A lone FF will kill a medium tank with one reload +2 Tulips if they land.

If one wanted to touch the unit one would have to take into account all parameters effecting the vehicle like time to hit the field, Tulips, sight, accuracy, vet bonuses and access to other tools like war speed and hammer trucking.

Ah yeah I see what you mean, yes with the incoming snares it's difficult to do anything to the firefly pre patch as they're set to become significantly more dangerous with the addition of british snares next patch

Jackson has mobility. Something other 60 range TDs lack. It has the freedom to engage in favour able terms. It can be used on the offensive if you want.
Thing is if you treat it like the other slow case mate TDs it still performs quite well, but the skill cap on the Jackson is above and beyond all other TDs. Any other TD that gets jumped is likley dead, the Jackson not only has a chance to escape, but bloody well might win.

True, and that’s the advantage of the jackson. All the other TDs have different advantages that I listed in the post you quoted.

A thought regarding the mortar for UKF. Do away with the emplacement design (or put into a doctrine etc) and replace with a mobile mortar which has multiple types of shells available (like the pit did in the aplha) BUT has a longer deploy/packup time, making it vulnerable to rushes.

A thought regarding the mortar for UKF. Do away with the emplacement design (or put into a doctrine etc) and replace with a mobile mortar which has multiple types of shells available (like the pit did in the aplha) BUT has a longer deploy/packup time, making it vulnerable to rushes.

I think Planet Smasher executed this better in his Artillery Pit mod.

It's basically the same idea but the mortar gets the abilities when it garrisons the Artillery Pit built by the Sappers.

The reasons why this is a better execution is because of 2 reasons:

1. Is that Relic will never make the mortar pit emplacement a doctrinal unit, one of the factors is because they have nowhere to put it and they already wasted time and money into making it.

2. Is because the mortar will be OP when well protected, especially in team games where they remain stationary most of the time so having access to all of those abilities without giving up anything else is a big no-no balance wise unless you want to break it.

We've covered it a bit but can we talk about how since the nerfs last patch UKF has virtually no answer to blob play due to lack of suppression or AoE early game, even late game it only comes from the centaur which got nerfed and again only really once you get vet 1. Getting a centaur is also only really viable if you have been ahead on fuel as a panzer 4 can just shut it down. It often just comes out too late if you ask me.

Tommies only remotely come close to trading out well with it at vet 2 even with brens but it's still so costly when you are losing me and the only other response is the AVRE and crocodile which do very well but are doctrinal.

Commando demo charges are awesome but difficult to pull off and any decent player won't let you do it again.

It seems the easiest strat in the book, blobbing, is all you really need to screw brits over right now.

Bren blobs used to be the best counter but that got nerf batted hard so vickers k's are the alternative... but again... doctrinal.

Allied blobs are easy to deal with due to non-doctrinal axis rocket artillery so you can't even blob back.

Late game in team games it's less of an issue, allies with katyushas or priests/calliopes deal with them. Gren blobs are fine, they're expensive. It's particularly an issue on volksgrenadiers which tend to just spiral into 5 star slaughtering machines that can clear garrisons and snare tanks. I honestly preferred it when volks had schreks to stg44s.

I dunno, it just seems I have to work my ass off to deal with idiots who just select all their men and right click the capture point. And it basically limits me to royal engineers or commando reg right now which bugs me.

I think a lot of this is due to the lack of an AA halftrack or valid alternative since the AEC now does very little against infantry. Ukf has the bofors which is so niche it's not really usable as a counter and the universal carrier suppression got nerfed a while ago too. So these blobs can just run rampant basically until you get 13 CP. Soviets have the T70 and maxim, and t34s can come out very early if need be. As well as penals and guards and snipers dismantle anything OST can do. USF infantry are much better at dealing with blobs for a start but they also have the stuart, scot and the AA halftrack, fighting positions and 50 cals which shut this stuff down hard.

But unfortunately I don't really know what to suggest on this one. I guess buffs to infantry sections we talked about would help, although that counter can be shut down with a panzerwerfer. Buffing the AEC's anti-infantry made it too good so I guess that's out and the universal carrier is already carrying the faction early game. Perhaps buffing the vickers suppression is the best solution?

I think vickers suppression could use a buff regardless. It's really annoying to put an entire burst in some squad out of cover and watch them just waltz away (or worse, run halfway through your arc and crawl the last 6 inches to flamenade range).

I think vickers suppression could use a buff regardless. It's really annoying to put an entire burst in some squad out of cover and watch them just waltz away (or worse, run halfway through your arc and crawl the last 6 inches to flamenade range).

agreed. both allied mgs suffer from this. low suppression rate compounds with longer range on axis nades to be woefully ineffective at the main reason you buy them. sadly the ukf is so fucked up that the vickers is better at clearing garrisons than it is fighting blobs and you need the UC with the vickers to make anything eat dirt...