PaK-43 viability in the meta game

I miss the old 88mm. I'd rather have a gun that can kill infantry and tanks decently vs. one that kills tanks well but sucks vs. infantry.

I had the idea that units would only shoot at units they were designed to be shooting at:

A long time ago I wrote how it irked me that infantry shot at tanks which they can not harm, snipers giving away their position by shooting at SU85s if not on hold fire Maxims firing at Bunkers which they can not deal damage to etc.

And vice versa I would like to have armored units shoot other armor and ignore infantry. That only the hull MG and top gunner auto-target infantry. Only if targeted by right clicking or via attack move the tank would engage infantry targets.

Now you could argue that this would be more micro intensive, but wouldn't it be more rewarding? That your Panzer 4 turret would only turn if armor comes into range and not every time an engineer comes out of the fog of war for 2 seconds? That the Pak43 and Pak40 would be silent until a proper target comes into range not alerting the enemy to its presence? StuGs and SU85s not being able to decide which infantry to shoot and then being flanked by a tank that comes from the opposite direction? Though this is of course a practiced tactic, to lure the AT tank with infantry, but ATM we are using the units AI that tells it to shoot at everything that comes into range. Without the auto-targeting of infantry the tank would just sit there and maybe fire its turret MG if its a StuG, but you would have LoS with your infantry and see which way the tank is aiming. Now you can still flank it, you just have to be more careful with the approach.

Though with right clicking (or attack moving or shift+right clicking) every infantry unit you have to micro a lot more. It comes down to how useful and worthwhile the not-shooting-everything-on-sight will be compared to the more clicking you will be doing. I think it will be a good thing to have more control/responsibility over your units.

TL;DR: Infantry should not shoot at tanks and buildings it can not harm or destroy. Tanks and AT guns should only shoot at tanks, not at infantry, unless the player specifically right clicks on them or attack moves with the unit.

+1 To the 4 man Pak43 crew unless it includes further problems with the upkeep.

I had the idea that units would only shoot at units they were designed to be shooting at:

A long time ago I wrote how it irked me that infantry shot at tanks which they can not harm, snipers giving away their position by shooting at SU85s if not on hold fire Maxims firing at Bunkers which they can not deal damage to etc.

And vice versa I would like to have armored units shoot other armor and ignore infantry. That only the hull MG and top gunner auto-target infantry. Only if targeted by right clicking or via attack move the tank would engage infantry targets.

Now you could argue that this would be more micro intensive, but wouldn't it be more rewarding? That your Panzer 4 turret would only turn if armor comes into range and not every time an engineer comes out of the fog of war for 2 seconds? That the Pak43 and Pak40 would be silent until a proper target comes into range not alerting the enemy to its presence? StuGs and SU85s not being able to decide which infantry to shoot and then being flanked by a tank that comes from the opposite direction? Though this is of course a practiced tactic, to lure the AT tank with infantry, but ATM we are using the units AI that tells it to shoot at everything that comes into range. Without the auto-targeting of infantry the tank would just sit there and maybe fire its turret MG if its a StuG. but you would have LoS with your infantry and see which way the tank is aiming. Now you can still flank it. you just have to be more careful with the approach.

Though with right clicking (or attack moving or shift+right clicking) every infantry unit you have to micro a lot more. It comes down to how useful and worthwhile the not-shooting-everything-on-sight will be compared to the more clicking you will be doing. I think it will be a good thing to have have more control/responsibility over your units.

TL;DR: Infantry should not shoot at tanks and buildings it can not harm or destroy. Tanks and AT guns should only shoot at tanks, not at infantry, unless the player specifically right clicks on them or attack moves with the unit.

+1 To the 4 man Pak43 crew unless it includes further problems with the upkeep.

+10000

Is the ability to 'shoot through buildings' and generally avoid LOS rules that every other unit in the game follows intended for this unit? I've had several games where one of these shot through an otherwise impenetrable stand of trees to destroy a tank that had no hope of knowing it could get hit.

It is intended afaik. Barely anyone knew about it until some dev used it.

I've been wondering this too, it seems a rather bizarre ability to have in a semi-realistic game. Why is this particular 88mm able to shoot through anything while the Tiger 88mm is not...?

Gameplay > realism.

If this stationary gun could not shoot through shot/LoS blockers, it would actually be completely useless.

I've been wondering this too, it seems a rather bizarre ability to have in a semi-realistic game. Why is this particular 88mm able to shoot through anything while the Tiger 88mm is not...?

The developers know the unit does not have a very long life. This way it can at least be powerful, until the soviets counter it(which they eventually will). Tigers and elephants don't need this because they can move and are well more durable.

Actually the isu can do this also, but it is an ability for it.

Gameplay > realism.

If this stationary gun could not shoot through shot/LoS blockers, it would actually be completely useless.

it still is completely useless .... for an immobile emplacement, its far too vulnerable. It needs a 4 man crew and definitely armor increase for the gun.

Either that or reduce the pop upkeep and cost to a reasonable amount.

Just out of curiosity: Did anyone manage to steal an elephant in multiplayer?

I would sure like to see such a replay!

Last patch i manage to steal one while using Mechanized support tactics on a 2v2. ISU + Elephant = Big Lulz.

It is intended afaik. Barely anyone knew about it until some dev used it.

Im wondering if trees or houses actually block the movement of the Pak.

I've been wondering this too, it seems a rather bizarre ability to have in a semi-realistic game. Why is this particular 88mm able to shoot through anything while the Tiger 88mm is not...?

Doesnt force fire let you shoot through houses/trees?

Doesnt force fire let you shoot through houses/trees?

Only some when using attack ground, like hedges. Others may allow you to shoot through if you are close enough to them but it is far from reliable.

Fun to kill something through hedges, though.

I've actually captured and fully repaired an Elephant. Unfortunately, my opponent just built another one, and a panther.

Apparently, the Elephant can't really do much to either tank, it's wholly balanced to kill Soviet stuff with armor no higher than the SU-85. Then again, that was before the latest round of changes.

Even as a primarily Soviet player, I still see the need for modifications to the PaK43 to make it more viable. It takes some effort to decrew, but once you know its location, it'll keep going down until destroyed, especially now that Soviets have more access to Recon Planes.

However, this does mean that the Pak43 does have to be built back a bit. You have to pick and choose where you'll place it. Germans already have a lot of good AT in their tanks, and decent defensive ability despite the MG42's rebalance. I don't want to see it directly buffed, but I do want to see it more usable.

Elefant has the same penetration as an SU-85, has bigger range and slightly worse potential DPS (more damage per shot but slower firing speed) - so it's not really a problem with Elefant not being able to kill them, just that Elefants/Panthers are just pretty heavily armoured (and most of soviet tanks aren't).

Considering the strength of Pak-43 to deal with any armor plus the innate flank-resistance of the OH army makes the Pak-43 pretty damn strong. Put it into shadow and nuke away at soviet tanks. Perfect bridge for the time between his T-34 and your PzIV.

Considering the strength of Pak-43 to deal with any armor plus the innate flank-resistance of the OH army makes the Pak-43 pretty damn strong. Put it into shadow and nuke away at soviet tanks. Perfect bridge for the time between his T-34 and your PzIV.

It is 4 CPs. It is useful but it will never be able to bridge the time between a T-34 and a Pz4.