Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Does anyone know when can we expect these reworks to hit the live servers?

The discussion is going nowhere. It is best to hit live and see how it goes from where, like always.

The discussion was good and productive until some well known guy hijacked this thread and the usual AXIS /ALlies talk began. Discussions are not pointless, the mod team implemented a lot of the ideas of the community. But i agree - in the not so near future we should know what the final version of the revamp commanders should look like.
It would be good if the mod team would give us some insight about their thoughts. I think it was very good how they managed the question regarding the 223.

Does anyone know when can we expect these reworks to hit the live servers?

The discussion is going nowhere. It is best to hit live and see how it goes from where, like always.

Believe me you don't want that, the last patch was done so and there are still a lot of problems after it, you can even see here that the USF Mechanized Company is having it's second revamp instead of something like let's say Rifle Company getting it.

Anyhow, in my opinion the British still need fixing because the mortar pit seriously hurts their indirect fire capabilities since it's basically a cripple right now. Royal Artillery while buffed still remains mainly a team game only commander and Tactical Support... is really in an odd spot, I mean I would not get it for anything else besides the Designated Command Vehicle and the mortar you get from the Air operations really, I mean there are 2 other commanders with the Churchill Croc so it's not something unique to the British.

On the other hand the USF commanders in a good spot, I mean I still don't see Mech Company being used as often but at least Armor is being solidly built now with the 105 Sherman becoming a doctrinal Brummbar with a turret basically, 5 man AEs with flamethrowers and the passive Vehicle Crews altho I still think it's prone to abuse now and should be replaced with something more practical and again, less prone to abuse since right now you can just park your vehicle next to an enemy AT gun and decrew it with your vehicle crew because of their increased potency without even risking the vehicle itself.

The OKW's Overwatch doctrine as you may have noticed still has an identity crisis and I'm starting to think that maybe some Panzer supporting infantry coming into a Halftrack like a mechanized group for Elite Armor is a really good idea.

Ostheer... Well people are still saying that the Defensive Doctrine is Osttruppen 2.0 because of the Osttruppen and Defensive Tools with which I don't see a problem with but I agree that the StuG III doesn't really fit in it and the Pak 43 is still a pretty juicy target to be nuked so basically obsolete on it's own in the open if not behind a shotblocker, unlike the 17 Pounder with it's emplacement. At least you get those concrete Bunkers out of the bargain. German Infantry meanwhile is still something I would not seriously consider using but then again the Panzergrenadier utility package and the supporting 250 sounds nice, I still wish they had a retreat point somehow but eh... Maybe in the new commander?

Soviets I don't really like but as you might have noticed again there's a pretty hot debate about the KV-2, Commissar and M42. It would still be nice to see the M42 being used as a replacement machine gun in buildings in my opinion tho lol.

Anyhow, in my opinion the British still need fixing because the mortar pit seriously hurts their indirect fire capabilities since it's basically a cripple right now. Royal Artillery while buffed still remains mainly a team game only commander

At least it's finally worth getting in teamgame. There are some commanders that are only good in teamgames and only good in 1v1 mode: who ever saw Jagtiger commander, Elefant doctrine, or priests in 1v1? - maybe once uppon 1000 games.

in my testgames the brits snare make it over the top. you have AEC with threat shot, sniper, fast tanks, realy good AT gun, FF, bofors etc and now snares and mines...

this is much better than other faction has. u can have snares..but than bring down other AT options

I don't think it needs anything as the Emergency Repairs, Panzer Commander and the HEAT shells the doctrine comes with would already make a Tiger I better than its Ostheer counterpart.

Well, you need to give it something - it will have 5 vet levels after all. All above you meansioned is available from a commander only.

Abilities which i describe mostly would be welcome for a Tiger I in a new commanders with pak40, infantry squad with 2 shreks, sniper etc.

Isnt it funny? to argue that okw shouldnet get ost units (lefh) but suggest that okw could get a tiger I?

neighter me or Sanders haven't said that okw shouldn't get lefh at all. It's already in Fortification which fits perfectly. Just Sturmtiger would sound better - that's it.

I agree 100% that OKW heavies need serious rework (who could not?) but i fear thats out of scope.
So lets concentrate on our options to replace the Sturmtiger and move the reworked version to "Overwatch".
As Stark / Sander said Tiger I would be a dream come true but i also would happily take the option to build a Brummbaer with Elite Armor.
Other option: A KT commander tank which would come already equipped with tank commander and panzer tactician.

By the way: Stark, whats your experience with the 1.7 version of Elite armor? Did you / Sully used it in the tourney and if yes whats your opinion about the 223? Does it need to come out earlier?

Regarding "Overwatrch rework":
NoktDraz I really like the idea of giving the pak40 to "overwatch". I already made the suggestion to rework "defense of the fatherland" to an supply drop including a pak40. It could also include 2 schrecks and would help to get much needed AT.
How would you incorporate the pak40?

i would leave pak40 for a new commanders. Balance team somewhere wrote that they consider moving jeagers to 1cp but with upgradable weapons. Why not give them 2x shrek upgrade then? They would work as a pgrens and it would replace your pak40 idea - plus would buff the ostwind commander as well.

Yeah i played with mr S in a 1.7 version. 221 is really fun to use. their fighting capabilities are okey, someone may say it comes too late epecially if you go t2 but at least it blocks the unit for spamming it really early game - which brits or USF could stragle.
I really like the idea of making it a supply unit. When it did the job, late game when it isn't needed it can atleast buff your income. I would keep a look on a resources buff though. On certain maps like Minks it could be really OP if you put it in a fuel point (extra 7 fuel income).

Sturmtiger still not worth it though. Maybe with old prices but surely not for 180 fuel and 600+ MP.

Well, you need to give it something - it will have 5 vet levels after all. All above you meansioned is available from a commander only.

Abilities which i describe mostly would be welcome for a Tiger I in a new commanders with pak40, infantry squad with 2 shreks, sniper etc.



neighter me or Sanders haven't said that okw shouldn't get lefh at all. It's already in Fortification which fits perfectly. Just Sturmtiger would sound better - that's it.



i would leave pak40 for a new commanders. Balance team somewhere wrote that they consider moving jeagers to 1cp but with upgradable weapons. Why not give them 2x shrek upgrade then? They would work as a pgrens and it would replace your pak40 idea - plus would buff the ostwind commander as well.

Yeah i played with mr S in a 1.7 version. 221 is really fun to use. their fighting capabilities are okey, someone may say it comes too late epecially if you go t2 but at least it blocks the unit for spamming it really early game - which brits or USF could stragle.
I really like the idea of making it a supply unit. When it did the job, late game when it isn't needed it can atleast buff your income. I would keep a look on a resources buff though. On certain maps like Minks it could be really OP if you put it in a fuel point (extra 7 fuel income).

Sturmtiger still not worth it though. Maybe with old prices but surely not for 180 fuel and 600+ MP.

I am glad you like the 221/223. Btw what do you think of turning the Sturmtiger into an SPG, similar in function to the CoH Hummel with the KV2 Siege mode like lockdown to increase range and reduce reload but make it a sitting duck?

I am glad you like the 221/223. Btw what do you think of turning the Sturmtiger into an SPG, similar in function to the CoH Hummel with the KV2 Siege mode like lockdown to increase range and reduce reload but make it a sitting duck?

this is a suggestion i was wrote many times here. make it like the kv2 or a b4 with huge rng circle and easier destroyable and cant move for 20 sec after shotting

Here's an updated overview of all my feedback on the OKW commanders.
Partly based on the usage in the tourney so far.

Once again I'd like to thank the team for a great job so far and for the community approach.


Elite Armor
General consensus: good commander overal. Fixes to the abilities have come a long way and the addition of the 221/223 is very interesting. Still I think it needs some more slight adjustments to become a truly viable commander.

[0 CP] 221 / 223

• I think the cost should be slightly adjusted to 200MP/20FU, in comparison to OST's 222 (200MP/30FU). 223 upgrade can be increased to 120MP/10FU to keep total cost for the mobile cache the same.

• Partly based on its limited use during the tourney, I think it currently comes onto the field a bit late for what it can do (as 221). I would propose to test it with the requirement moved down to having an SWS truck built, rather than an HQ set up. This should put its deployment time down by 2-3 minutes and give it a bit of shock value. Makes players choose between teching or fighting power. If this is too early for USF to deal with it, armor could be lowered and the 223 upgrade could act like armored skirts (historically earlier models of 221 had less armor).

• The healing is nice but the stack of 3x crates makes it awkward to use on the front lines (you rarely need more than one crate). It would be much more practical if it drops one crate at a time or can select a squad for healing (like OST's medkits). 15-20MU per crate/heal.

• The ability to engage aircraft would be nice. Could be considered for vet4 to replace the durability bonus that isn't incredibly useful.

[4 CP] Emergency Repairs

• This ability is in a really good spot right now. Low cost and quite a significant yield. Very useful to get vehicles back into battles a bit faster.

[5 CP] Panzer Commander

• Good overhaul, ability is really useful now and definitely worth the trade with pintle mount.
  

• While the current implementation of the PC's Artillery Barrage is very useful, it does devastating damage against tanks because it is so concentrated. See https://www.coh2.org/topic/82569/commander-revamp-patch-bug-list/post/699991. Would propose to spread out shells a bit more.

[7 CP] HEAT Shells

• Great ability, good as it is.

[11 CP] Sturmtiger

• Decrease range on hull MG so it doesn't fire at max range and reveals the Sturmtigers position (spoiling the element of surprise) before it can fire the rocket. Or add a 'hold fire' option to it.

• Please consider removing light cover collision from the rocket. This unit is already very micro heavy and clumsy to use, and after going through all the trouble of manually reloading and planning the next attack it's very annoying when the rocket detonates prematurely just because there was a small bush or fence in the way. If this isn't possible, decrease the random scatter a bit so avoiding cover with the shot is actually in the player's control.

• I think the limit of 1 shared with King Tiger is something that wasn't needed. These units serve completely different roles and do not supplement each other like the Command Panther would. I would like to see this limit removed.

• Alternatively, move Sturmtiger to Overwatch (or Breakthrough preferably) and replace 5th slot with a Tiger I. This would give OKW a valuable alternative to the King Tiger that can be more agressive and mobile but is less powerful. Would fit certain maps much better than the KT. An OKW Tiger I "Ausf.E" would suit the doctrine much better than the Sturmtiger, thematically. Moving the heavy call-ins around would also benefit Overwatch a lot (see below).

Overwatch
General consensus: this doctrine still has an identity crisis. It's kinda all over the place and in its current state I don't see it used much, apart from the Goliath memes. Needs some radical changes still I think.

[0 CP] Early Warning and Forward Receivers

• Good thing to have merged these, flares give nice vision. Doesn't need any changes.

[0 CP] Goliath

• High risk high reward unit, doesn't need any changes I think. Perhaps slightly decrease detectability range by minesweepers.

• Others pointed out that Goliaths themselves are a bit lackluster to take up an ability slot by themselves. Proposals have been to expand slot into 'heavy demolitions' which gives Sturmpioneers access to some extra tools as well. Teller mines or demos perhaps.

[2 CP] Jaeger Light Infantry (JLI)

• Initial changes to combat performance were good.

• Main problem for JLI is that they are better mainline infantry rather than elites. This makes it difficult/awkward to fit them into build orders. This seems to be backed up by their very limited use in the tourney.

• Solution: move requirement down to either 0CP with cooldown or 1CP. This should give players the opportunity to replace the standard 3rd or 4th Volksgrenadier with JLI and give them a place in the opening build order.

• Obviously, if moved down to 0-1CP, some abilities would have to be adjusted. Scoped Gew43 could become an upgrade. Camouflage might need to be moved back to vet1.

[2 CP] For the Fatherland

• Can't say much about this ability, seems to be fine for what it does.

[8 CP] LeFH 18

• LeFH 18 is an odd adition to the doctrine. It doesn't make it particularily attractive to choose. If one wants LeFH 18, Defensive Doctrine is generally the better choice. While it isn't bad, it also doesn't provide a 'cherry on top' to close the doctrine.

• Its new vet5 ability "aimed shot" is practically useless. Needs to be replaced by something else. Or buffed massively. I have no idea frankly.

• Personally, I would like to see the 5th slot filled by the Sturmtiger coming over from Elite Armor. Or (if allowed within scope) even better: Jagdtiger to Overwatch and Sturmtiger to Breakthrough.

• Moving Sturmtiger or Jagdtiger to Overwatch would give the doctrine the significant boost it needs with a high power unit at the end. Would synergise well with JLI and Early Warning for sight. Especially the Jagdtiger would really fit the theme of the doctrine.

• Alternatively, the Jagdtiger can simply be added as a replacement to the LeFH 18 without shuffling any of the other doctrines. The Elefant and ISU-152 are in multiple doctrines as well.

People underestimate just how powerful Overwatch Doctrine's flares are in 1v1. I can see how it's a bit weaker in teamgames just as the Elefant doctrines are weaker in 1v1s. Power level wise the buffs have put it in a good place: if it receives further edits they should probably sidegrade it rather than buff it further.

I am glad you like the 221/223. Btw what do you think of turning the Sturmtiger into an SPG, similar in function to the CoH Hummel with the KV2 Siege mode like lockdown to increase range and reduce reload but make it a sitting duck?

Sturmtiger is one of the hardest unit to balance in game.

Thing is it fires rockets not a artillery round so the projectile is more linear. After the patch it colides with terrain and obstacles. Don't see it firing for another side of the map with current animation. Plus one rocket has 1,5 m length and 125 kg weight. It didn't have Hummel or kv-2 rate of fire. If anything it could work as b4 on wheels but honestly i;m not huge fan of it.

I would see it in current form, great vs teamweapon, at gun walls and blobs but it has be to way cheaper and with more reasonable abilities. Granade that can kill 1 or 2 infantry models in 25 range for a unit that suppose to keep distance is not right way to go. Extra flare ability could make it more atractive.
Sanders also pointed out that this unit should have disable mg option. Currently the mg reveal your ST in certain situation when you try to make a sneaky shot.

The healing is nice but the stack of 3x crates makes it awkward to use on the front lines (you rarely need more than one crate). It would be much more practical if it drops one crate at a time or can select a squad for healing (like OST's medkits). 15-20MU per crate/heal.

• The ability to engage aircraft would be nice. Could be considered for vet4.

Yeah 1 crate just makes more sense. Sturmpio medpack would be more as a base healing while 221 med pack would be frontline healing.

current vet 4 ability which reduces damage while it's deployed is okey yet something else is needed - addtionaly AA ability would be great. I'm buying it

Here's an updated overview of all my feedback on the OKW commanders.
Partly based on the usage in the tourney so far.

Once again I'd like to thank the team for a great job so far and for the community approach.


Elite Armor
General consensus: good commander overal. Fixes to the abilities have come a long way and the addition of the 221/223 is very interesting. Still I think it needs some more slight adjustments to become a truly viable commander.

[0 CP] 221 / 223

• I think the cost should be slightly adjusted to 200MP/20FU, in comparison to OST's 222 (200MP/30FU). 223 upgrade can be increased to 120MP/10FU to keep total cost for the mobile cache the same.

• Partly based on its limited use during the tourney, I think it currently comes onto the field a bit late for what it can do (as 221). I would propose to test it with the requirement moved down to having an SWS truck built, rather than an HQ set up. This should put its deployment time down by 2-3 minutes and give it a bit of shock value. Makes players choose between teching or fighting power.

• The healing is nice but the stack of 3x crates makes it awkward to use on the front lines (you rarely need more than one crate). It would be much more practical if it drops one crate at a time or can select a squad for healing (like OST's medkits). 15-20MU per crate/heal.

• The ability to engage aircraft would be nice. Could be considered for vet4 to replace the durability bonus that isn't incredibly useful.

[4 CP] Emergency Repairs

• This ability is in a really good spot right now. Low cost and quite a significant yield. Very useful to get vehicles back into battles a bit faster.

[5 CP] Panzer Commander

• Good overhaul, ability is really useful now and definitely worth the trade with pintle mount.
  

• While the current implementation of the PC's Artillery Barrage is very useful, it does devastating damage against tanks because it is so concentrated. See https://www.coh2.org/topic/82569/commander-revamp-patch-bug-list/post/699991. Would propose to spread out shells a bit more.

[7 CP] HEAT Shells

• Great ability, good as it is.

[11 CP] Sturmtiger

• Decrease range on hull MG so it doesn't fire at max range and reveals the Sturmtigers position (spoiling the element of surprise) before it can fire the rocket. Or add a 'hold fire' option to it.

• Please consider removing light cover collision from the rocket. This unit is already very micro heavy and clumsy to use, and after going through all the trouble of manually reloading and planning the next attack it's very annoying when the rocket detonates prematurely just because there was a small bush or fence in the way. If this isn't possible, decrease the random scatter a bit so avoiding cover with the shot is actually in the player's control.

• Alternatively, move Sturmtiger to Overwatch (or Breakthrough preferably) and replace 5th slot with a Tiger I. This would give OKW a valuable heavy alternative to the King Tiger that can be more agressive and mobile. An OKW Tiger I "Ausf.E" would suit the doctrine much better than the Sturmtiger, thematically. Moving the heavy call-ins around would also benefit Overwatch a lot (see below).

Overwatch
General consensus: this doctrine still has an identity crisis. It's kinda all over the place and in its current state I don't see it used much, apart from the Goliath memes. Needs some radical changes still I think.

[0 CP] Early Warning and Forward Receivers

• Good thing to have merged these, flares give nice vision. Doesn't need any changes.

[0 CP] Goliath

• High risk high reward unit, doesn't need any changes I think. Perhaps slightly decrease detectability range by minesweepers.

• Others pointed out that Goliaths themselves are a bit lackluster to take up an ability slot by themselves. Proposals have been to expand slot into 'heavy demolitions' which gives Sturmpioneers access to some extra tools as well. Teller mines or demos perhaps.

[2 CP] Jaeger Light Infantry (JLI)

• Initial changes to combat performance were good.

• Main problem for JLI is that they are better mainline infantry rather than elites. This makes it difficult/awkward to fit them into build orders. This seems to be backed up by their very limited use in the tourney.

• Solution: move requirement down to either 0CP with cooldown or 1CP. This should give players the opportunity to replace the standard 3rd or 4th Volksgrenadier with JLI and give them a place in the opening build order.

• Obviously, if moved down to 0-1CP, some abilities would have to be adjusted. Scoped Gew43 could become an upgrade. Camouflage might need to be moved back to vet1.

[0 CP] For the Fatherland

• Can't say much about this ability, seems to be fine for what it does.

[0 CP] LeFH 18

• LeFH 18 is an odd adition to the doctrine. It doesn't make it particularily attractive to choose. If one wants LeFH 18, Defensive Doctrine is generally the better choice.

• Its new vet5 ability "aimed shot" is practically useless. Needs to be replaced by something else. I have no idea frankly.

• Personally, I would like to see the 5th slot filled by the Sturmtiger coming over from Elite Armor. Or (if within scope) even better: Jagdtiger to Overwatch and Sturmtiger to Breakthrough.

• Moving Sturmtiger or Jagdtiger to Overwatch would give the doctrine the significant boost it needs with a high power unit at the end. Would synergise well with JLI and Early Warning for sight. Especially the Jagdtiger would really fit the theme of the doctrine.

Sander:THX A LOT FOR THIS GREAT POST!

Stark: THX for your feedback about 223. I like a lot the idea of giving the Jaegers the 2& schreck upgrade - together with stealth they could become a really nice unit! It would also solve OKWs AT problem without moving Pzgrens to OKW.

Urban Defense doctrine was never about defense, it was about agressively pushing enemy and snowballing game, defensive stuff it got was there to protect FHQ from getting getting burned down. Right now it looks more defensive than before rework thanks to incendiary arty being replaced by KV-2 and constant FHQ nerfs

Can we take this rather useless discussion somewhere else, please?
This is about commander feedback, not historical discussion.