Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Cavalry riflemen is my favourite unit in this game amazing job

While I am happy with the observation change with the valentine, I decided to test it against the puma and AEC. Its clear rof is dominant here.



I knew the puma and AEC gave it a run of its money but even at vet 3, a non-vet puma and AEC can beat the valentine (easily when vetted).

Point is, its combat veterancy is hopeless (dosent help with the vet requirements are equal or greater than some medium tanks). Its extra health at vet 3 is not enough and still under-performs.

P.s forgot to turn off my audio recorder, may here me talk to my brother.

On Withdraw and Refit specifically,
The problem I see with Withdraw and Refit is that Mechanized in its DBP incarnation doesn't really have units you want to send away.

The WC51 is so cheap that it's not worth refunding, especially when you've sunk munitions into arming it. The M3 Halftrack turns into the highly effective Bazooka Bus: you're more likely to call in a second when you lose it than send it away. The original WC51 was worth refunding but nothing in the commander really becomes obsolete now.

Withdraw and Refit is an ability I think is better served in a commander that wants to call in something expensive later on, like Heavy Cavalry Company or Tactical Support Company. Getting rid of all your light utility vehicles feels more like it's fighting against the Mechanized theme of the commander than for it.

On the commander as a whole,
I think the problem is less the large number of abilities Mechanized has and more that they're bolted in weird places. That's the result of the DBP team trying to preserve the original flavour of the abilities: they created a commander that works but one that feels very awkward.

155mm Artillery and Mark Target got bolted onto the WC51 where they really don't belong, the Assault Engineer crew in the M3 works better than the original battlegroup but feels odd. The Bulldozer upgrade for the 75mm Sherman created a unit that was visually identical to the completely different Sherman Bulldozer.

I like where this commander is going, but I think what Mechanized needs more than new stuff is decluttering. DBP Mechanized was never a bad commander. I'd wager the reason it got into this rework patch in the first place is because it's an awkward commander.

Anyway, it's pretty unhelpful to point out problems and pose no solutions so here's where I'd personally go with this commander.

• WC51 Call-in
  • Mark Target and 155mm Artillery removed.
  • With Raid removed, possibly give it the ability to cap either as standard or as a 15 munition upgrade.
  
  
• Mechanized Regiment
  • Adds the M3 Halftrack to the Barracks. It has a normal vehicle crew.
  • Adds the M21 Mortar Halftrack to the Barracks.
  • Both are gated behind an officer unlock.
  
  
• Cavalry Riflemen Call-in
  • Combined Arms is attached to Cavalry Riflemen, either as a passive (which only benefits the Cav Rifles themselves) or as an activated aura.
  • Both implementions encourage Cav Rifles to stick near vehicles, and the second adds some counterplay to Combined Arms for the opponent.
  
  
• 155mm Artillery
  
  
• 76mm Sherman

This removes Combined Arms as a Commander Bar ability so Heavy Cavalry will need a replacement. Withdraw and Refit could work: liquidate your other tanks to get a Pershing out.

Initial reaction to Patch.

-Veterancy 2 squad size increase removed.
-Squad size from 4 to 5.
Problem
A men squad with flamer and bar upgrade will be problematic. In addition the unit is too cost efficient compared to assault grenadier available at same CP and cost.
Suggestions:
Move to CP 1 offer 2 upgrades flamer, or 3 Thompson+5 man + WP grenades locked behind officer. Lower price to 240.

Elite Vehicle Crews
-Cost from 70 to 35.
-Gives 2 Thomphsons instead of 4.
Problem
This is simple solution
Suggestions:
Make the ability to allow a 4 vet bonus for some MP/Fuel

WC 51
-Build time from 30 to 18
-MG cooldown duration from 1.25/2 to 1.25/1.5
-MG Rate of fire multiplier from 1/0.8333/0.6667 to 1/1/1

Mechanized Groups
-M21 Mortar Halftrack available from the Rifle Command; requires an officer to be deployed. Does not affect Infantry Company.
Problems:
too much utility in these units to become attractive, confusing refit refuel implementation with player unaware of what hi is getting with refuel refit.
Suggestions:
Increase synergy with refit refuel. WC-51 only unit available removed mark target and barrage. Reason:
the unit is so cheap that in late game can be "kamikzed" just for mark target and barrage.
Add an pop up option on unit so that the vehicle can be "refit and refuel" to the following vehicles m3/m20/AAHT/ambulance/m21 maybe greyhound for the difference in cost. (maybe all these vehicles become interchanging between them)
Reason:
increase flax ability of built solidifies commander as flexible light vehicle commander.
Remove Assault engineer as crew to M3, remove med kits
Reason:
exploit since Assault engineer have a cost of 280 making the vehicle/crew way to cheap
Med kit to powerful if vehicle given to soviets

Cavalry Riflemen (New Unit) - Replaces Raid in Mechanized Company.
-300mp; 5 man squad with M3 Greasguns and two M1 Thompsons that are slot items.
-Abilities: M23 Rifle Smoke Grenades, AT Satchels, Covering Fire
-Can use 'Covering Fire' ability; Greatly reduces the Cavalry Riflemen's accuracy by 90%, but targeted infantry unit receives a 75% accuracy penalty and are reduced to walking speed for 11 seconds or until the ability ends. 25 munitions.
-Requires 2 Command Points to call-in.
-7 population.
-Has 1 weapon slot.
-Takes up the previous position of Raid in Mechanized.
-Veterancy 1: Reduces recharge of all abilities by 25%.
-Veterancy 2: -20% weapon cooldown, -23% Received accuracy.
-Veterancy 3: +25% smoke range, -15% Received Accuracy, +30% weapon accuracy.
Problems:
(Potential does slow also effect retreat?)
Unit overlap with assault Engineering available from m3.
Suggestions:
Either a battle group coming with m3
or reduce CP 1 make Thompson an upgrade locked behind officer
Reason:
Having early access to call-in infantry allows USF to reduce the number of riflemen.
Add small amount of synergy between Calvary and light vehicles like +5 vision -1 target size.

Artillery Cover
- Now available at converted structures or upgraded Forward Assembly.
- Cost from 250 to 180

Problem:
The cost of the upgrade and CP is a bit steep. In addition although the ambient building comes cheaper it has much more limitations.
The ability on FA can be problematic since it can easily placed near base enemy base entrance and spam of maps.
Suggestions:
Maybe allow ambient buildings to reinforce?
Lower CP and cost, but also lower the potency/cost of abilities

Air Resupply Operation
Problem:
-Vickers HMG replaced by M1 81mm Mortar; same version used by the USF.
Ability seem to make other drop-able weapon pale in comparison (paratroopers/osttruppen)
Suggestions:
Check cost

Valentine
-CP requirement from 6 to 5
-Observation now increases sight by 50%; no longer scans for units in the FOW and does not disable movement.
Problems:
Unit allows Sextons to fire endlessly. Has crash be removed? Vet bonuses make unit way too fast (especially with war speed) but offer little more.
Suggestions:
Scrap "Sexton Creeping Barrage"
Reason:
Having valentine speeding among ATG while bombing them could prove problematic.
Reduce the power of SExtons but allow valentines a timed ability that buffs sextons.

Commissar
-Conscripts can no longer be merged into the Commissar unit; prevents a bug where Conscripts would be armed with the officer's weapon.
-Squad received Accuracy from 0.97 to 0.87
-'Stand Your Ground' and 'Fight to the Death' cost from 20 to 0.

Scorched Earth
-Now instantly detonates
-Resource denial duration from 60 to 120

Shock Troops
-Cost from 390 to 360.
Problems:
Shock Troops simply too cost efficient and in addition completely nullifying both smgs and assault rifle unit. Has any one tested shock under HQ aura!!!!
Suggestions:
If one want to increase the mid damage of shock one should replace 2 ppsh with SVTs and making PPsh tranfable adjust the close dps of ppsh if needed. That way Shock could fight mid range or do damage on approach but they would be unable to sustain mid range fight after losing 2 model (since the squad would lose the SVTs).
Since the combination o shocks and Aura is broken I would rather not have Shock in the commander.
Fixing shock is balance issue not a commander issue and the unit should not be added just for "balance/scope" reasons.


-Veterancy 1 Medkits replaced with automatic healing when out of combat.
-Now able to stealth when moving through cover; similar to veteran Fallschirmjager.

StuG E
-Health from 480 to 560
-Target size from 20 to 17
-Veterancy 2 reload bonus from 0.9 to 0.85.

Problems:
Unit to potent on vet 0 but scaling bad
Suggestions:
Move the HP/target size buffs to vet 3 and mobility buffs to 2. Remove armor bonus. Replace TWP vet 1 ability with something unique/better. (vet 1 toggle ability "direct fire mode", unit can now fire normal AP round with lower penetration but some deflection damage)

Jaegar Light Infantry
-Now has First-Strike Bonuses; increases accuracy by 50% for 5 seconds.
-JLI G43 Sniper Rifle light and heavy cover accuracy modifiers from 0.5 to 0.9.
-JLI G43 Sniper Rifle garrison accuracy modifiers from 0.5 to 0.9

Stumtiger
-AOE distance to 1/3.75/8 from 0.25/1.5/8.
-Suppression recovery time from 3 to 8; this increases the delay before infantry near a detonating Sturmtiger rocket can begin suppression recovery.
-Sturmtiger ambient building damage adjusted; should automatically destroy most ambient structures in one hit.
Problems:
Suppression too powerful and disrupting, little utility vs vehicles and emplacements.
Suggestions:
Add extra damage vs building and emplacements or partially ignores brace.
Add critical injured driver/gunner vs vehicles
Replace suppress effect on infantry with the new ability from cavalry infantry DPS/speed reduction.

Panzer Commander
-Artillery Barrage delay from 3 to 0.
-Now increases main gun accuracy by 10%.
-CP Requirement from 8 to 5.
Problems:
PzIV/Panther speed around while dropping arty can prove problematic.
Suggestion
Scrap artillery or leave only to KT. Replace explosive artillery with incendiary allowing player to react or even smoke barrage for PzIV and Panther.

Emergency Repair
-Health regeneration per second from 20 to 30; restores 300 total health over 10 seconds after a 5 second delay.

Initial reaction to Patch.

WC 51
-Build time from 30 to 18
-MG cooldown duration from 1.25/2 to 1.25/1.5
-MG Rate of fire multiplier from 1/0.8333/0.6667 to 1/1/1

Mechanized Groups
-M21 Mortar Halftrack available from the Rifle Command; requires an officer to be deployed. Does not affect Infantry Company.
Problems:
too much utility in these units to become attractive, confusing refit refuel implementation with player unaware of what hi is getting with refuel refit.
Suggestions:
Increase synergy with refit refuel. WC-51 only unit available removed mark target and barrage. Reason:
the unit is so cheap that in late game can be "kamikzed" just for mark target and barrage.
Add an pop up option on unit so that the vehicle can be "refit and refuel" to the following vehicles m3/m20/AAHT/ambulance/m21 maybe greyhound for the difference in cost. (maybe all these vehicles become interchanging between them)
Reason:
increase flax ability of built solidifies commander as flexible light vehicle commander.
Remove Assault engineer as crew to M3, remove med kits
Reason:
exploit since Assault engineer have a cost of 280 making the vehicle/crew way to cheap
Med kit to powerful if vehicle given to soviets

Cavalry Riflemen (New Unit) - Replaces Raid in Mechanized Company.
-300mp; 5 man squad with M3 Greasguns and two M1 Thompsons that are slot items.
-Abilities: M23 Rifle Smoke Grenades, AT Satchels, Covering Fire
-Can use 'Covering Fire' ability; Greatly reduces the Cavalry Riflemen's accuracy by 90%, but targeted infantry unit receives a 75% accuracy penalty and are reduced to walking speed for 11 seconds or until the ability ends. 25 munitions.
-Requires 2 Command Points to call-in.
-7 population.
-Has 1 weapon slot.
-Takes up the previous position of Raid in Mechanized.
-Veterancy 1: Reduces recharge of all abilities by 25%.
-Veterancy 2: -20% weapon cooldown, -23% Received accuracy.
-Veterancy 3: +25% smoke range, -15% Received Accuracy, +30% weapon accuracy.
Problems:
(Potential does slow also effect retreat?)
Unit overlap with assault Engineering available from m3.
Suggestions:
Either a battle group coming with m3
or reduce CP 1 make Thompson an upgrade locked behind officer
Reason:
Having early access to call-in infantry allows USF to reduce the number of riflemen.
Add small amount of synergy between Calvary and light vehicles like +5 vision -1 target size.

the unit is so cheap that in late game can be "kamikzed" just for mark target and barrage - what's the diffrent between this or calling a recon and using call in off map barrage? I mean at least here you have to get WC51 close enough to call it. At least it can be usefull later game.

Assault engineers doesn't overlap so much with Cavalery riflemen - ok fine, they are both close combat but they have totally diffrent abilities, diffrent role on the battlefield. (i agree though that cav should have weapon upgrade included).

Is the M42 getting a cloaked movement speed increase? At the moment it's far too slow. Given that the AT gun is relatively light it makes sense that the crew would be able to move it pretty quickly.

Perhaps a slight increase in the rate of fire might also help make it a bit more attractive. But ultimately it's only ever going to be worth having in the early/mid game.

Assault Engineers have the same issue against vehicles as assgrens, so if people are gonna spam them as assgrens often still are they will suffer for it. Don't see much issue at present using them in the mod. The Valentine to 5cp PRAISE JEBUS MANY GOATS HATH DIED TO SEE THIS BUILT!

Stormtrooper changes are poorly thought out and poorly implemented. The only good thing is that at least in another, otherwise reasonable well thought out commander nobody seems to have used.

I doubt I will use these guys, giving them MP 40s are not suited for low model count squad, which would have trouble getting close enough, that also looses its only durability buff, received accuracy at the range the MP40s work well.

At this MP cost and bleed, its very uneconomical to spawn these guys anywhere behind the line.

It also lacks character (basically copycat UKF Commandoes / poor man's Shocks) and abilities to work with such a unit. The live version is basically buffed Grens at almost 50% extra price. The current version is either buffed Pios or just basically Assault Grenadier with cloak. Neither is good.

3 Kar98s and 1 Stg on spawn would be a better option for both spawns and normal combat use, with the old upgrade for 4 Stgs / or 1 Shreck costing 75 Muni.

The unit would have sufficient CQB firepower to spawn behind enemy lines, and would differentiate from both Grens and Panzergrens in use when used normally afterward. Essentially it would create a very versatile unit that would be still too expensive to spam, but could serve a useful to purpose in the very specialized OST line of a useful 'generalist' infantry that can specialize via upgrade.

Easy Eight price drop is unwarranted. The thing literally sh*ts on the Pz IV (either variant) and is now costing practically the same...?

the unit is so cheap that in late game can be "kamikzed" just for mark target and barrage - what's the diffrent between this or calling a recon and using call in off map barrage? I mean at least here you have to get WC51 close enough to call it. At least it can be usefull later game.

Using units on suicide mission to use call-ins is contrary to game design. Refit removes the need of WC being useful in late game and it would further remove that need if it returned another vehicle instead of giving back resources.

Assault engineers doesn't overlap so much with Cavalery riflemen - ok fine, they are both close combat but they have totally diffrent abilities, diffrent role on the battlefield. (i agree though that cav should have weapon upgrade included).

With Cavalry riflemen there is hardy any reason the crew of the m3 to be Assault engineers. it creates more problems than it solves.

Assault Engineers have the same issue against vehicles as assgrens, so if people are gonna spam them as assgrens often still are they will suffer for it. Don't see much issue at present using them in the mod.

Not really because Assault Engineers have access to mines and bazookas and their mgs can handle the kubel.

In the mod assault grenadier are one of the least cost efficient call-in infantry.

Easy Eight price drop is unwarranted. The thing literally sh*ts on the Pz IV (either variant) and is now costing practically the same...?

That's the M4C, not the Easy Eight.

Stormtrooper changes are poorly thought out and poorly implemented. The only good thing is that at least in another, otherwise reasonable well thought out commander nobody seems to have used.

I doubt I will use these guys, giving them MP 40s are not suited for low model count squad, which would have trouble getting close enough, that also looses its only durability buff, received accuracy at the range the MP40s work well.

At this MP cost and bleed, its very uneconomical to spawn these guys anywhere behind the line.

It also lacks character (basically copycat UKF Commandoes / poor man's Shocks) and abilities to work with such a unit.

3 Kar98s and 1 Stg on spawn would be a better option for both spawns and normal combat use, with the old upgrade for 4 Stgs / or 1 Shreck costing 75 Muni.

The unit would have sufficient CQB firepower to spawn behind enemy lines, and would differentiate from both Grens and Panzergrens in use when used normally afterward. Essentially it would create a very versatile unit that would be still too expensive to spam, but could serve a useful to purpose in the very specialized OST line of a useful 'generalist' infantry that can specialize via upgrade.

The change to stormtroopers has been iterated (edit twice now) already and miragefla has been making rounds defending the changes.

Unfortunately i fear this means stormtrooper mp40s will go through to final patch regardless of feedback. Our role is only to indicate how much we like or how much we love the change.

I am fairly certain it's mirageflas pet project because the unique (unintuitive) weapon profile is very much his style.

I like the changes to Elite Armor, that's shaping up to be a good commander. Emergency Repairs now seems to be a nice cost-effective ability to get your tanks back into battle faster.

The extra changes to the Panzer Commander seem make it worth getting over the pintle mounted MG now. Just one request: could you consider making it available to the Jagdpanzer IV? It would synergyse well with its role. Maybe disable the artillery call-in though to prevent it from gaining AI power.


Now the only thing that's left is the rather useless Signal Relay ability. I think what would absolutely bump this commander into meta is replacing it with Panzer Tactician smoke. Although this might be too much (making tanks OP) in combination with HEAT shells, repairs and the Panzer Commander. It would however absolutely solidify armor play (in accordance with the doctrine's theme).


Also now that the Sturmtiger is being adjusted - could you consider removing its rocket's collision with medium cover objects? It's super annoying to micro your Sturmtiger out of danger, manually reload it, finally have the rocket available again, line up the perfect shot, just to see it hit a small fence or crate along the way and detonate prematurely. I don't think boxes or fences should be able to stop a 376KG projectile.

+1

The extra changes to the Panzer Commander seem make it worth getting over the pintle mounted MG now. Just one request: could you consider making it available to the Jagdpanzer IV? It would synergyse well with its role. Maybe disable the artillery call-in though to prevent it from gaining AI power.

There's no pintle on the JPIV to equip it to. If you wanted to put Panzer Commander on a tank destroyer you'd need to add another one.

like a hetzer

I checked, the Jagdpanzer IV has a modeled hatch on the top (it opens when the vehicle is abandoned). Just put the commander model in it and voilà.

As much as I would love to see the Hetzer, I'd personally put that one in the new commander as part of some kind of tank hunter doctrine.

I checked, the Jagdpanzer IV has a modeled hatch on the top (it opens when the vehicle is abandoned). Just put the commander model in it and voilà.

Would be great if this goes through. JP4 with bonus sight and accuracy - holy moly.

The change to stormtroopers has been iterated (edit twice now) already and miragefla has been making rounds defending the changes.

Unfortunately i fear this means stormtrooper mp40s will go through to final patch regardless of feedback. Our role is only to indicate how much we like or how much we love the change.

I am fairly certain it's mirageflas pet project because the unique (unintuitive) weapon profile is very much his style.

When did I defend it? I just gave DPS numbers which puts their MP 40 fairly close to commando stens.

On Panzer Commander, i’m Not sure you can give it to the Jagdpanzer without modifications. It already has 45 sight in a cone. Giving it 55 sight would be pretty absurd without penalties - aside from it seeing everything in a cone.

The change to stormtroopers has been iterated (edit twice now) already and miragefla has been making rounds defending the changes.

Unfortunately i fear this means stormtrooper mp40s will go through to final patch regardless of feedback. Our role is only to indicate how much we like or how much we love the change.

I am fairly certain it's mirageflas pet project because the unique (unintuitive) weapon profile is very much his style.

Im pretty sure I was the one to originally suggest giving them mp40s. Also, theyre an smg profile. Thats neither unique nor unintuitive.

Also, I honestly havent seen a convincing argument against stormtroopers or a decent alternative. Most people who argued against the mp40s seemed to assume they were pio smgs, and I think they still cant drop that stigma. I have the honest feeling that if we kept the exact same stats, but reskinned their weapons as mp40s, the complaints would go away.

Beyond that, commandos are already proven to work as a unit, with many people enjoying their style. Not sure why stormtroopers, which in the patch operate much the same, are now suddenly a failure of a unit.

Now revert the shared cooldown for the grenades and we are set.

Also, I honestly havent seen a convincing argument against stormtroopers or a decent alternative.

You have, but keeping in tradition with giving players what they do not ask for, and ignoring feedback that they do not like it was a trademark of these patches before.

Most people who argued against the mp40s seemed to assume they were pio smgs, and I think they still cant drop that stigma.

Nobody assumed they are Pio SMGs. They are still SMGs though, with SMG profile. Meaning they are more or less useless at anywhere but close range, especially when there is only four models holding them. It also completely goes against the design of Stormtroopers themselves - a low model unit, with high RA.

It has keep them at long or maybe at mid range written all over them. And now they get a weapon that is useless at long and mid. Giving you a unit that you have very similar units already in the game - namely Assault Grenadiers (cost less) and Pioneers (cost much less).

Tell us, the unenlightened ones, what unfullfilled tactical role this 3rd iteration of doctrinal SMG infantry has in Wehr’s inventory?

Beyond that, commandos are already proven to work as a unit, with many people enjoying their style. Not sure why stormtroopers, which in the patch operate much the same, are now suddenly a failure of a unit.

You mean beyond the fact that its two different factions, one of which has one of the best mainline infantry units for mid/long range and a commendo style unit can complement that very well against another another has only fragile glass cannons that already has 3 short range specialist so now they get a 4th one?

Tell us, the unenlightened ones, what unfullfilled tactical role this 3rd iteration of doctrinal SMG infantry has in Wehr’s inventory?

Ambush. You put them on hold-fire, hide them somewhere and then toss a grenade and decloak when an enemy squad wanders too near. Like Commandos.