Cons improved against grens after patch?

I know the last patch did nothing to conscripts, but I feel after the patch they are faring better against grenadiers, has anyone noticed this? Could this be related to the grenadiers over kill corrections in the last patch?

Seems pretty normal to me. Small sample size if you are experiencing something different.

Did you post that by mistake I hope?

Because otherwise its a pretty useless contribution, much like most of your posts/comments in this forum, lol.

I think the video is pretty accurate. And this thread was already useless

I think the video is pretty accurate. And this thread was already useless

following the Nullist analogy you would have to be a "second account", lol.

thanks

Grenadiers had their damage nerfed, their accuracy slightly buffed and their rate of fire slightly buffed. This could be what you are experiencing. I've noticed Grens performance vs cons to be worse off than they were before as a result of these changes (especially if the opponent is using con bulletins).

Its also a lot easier for cons to use molotovs vs Grens rifle grenade. So the Gren vs con engagement is pretty annoying right now. The problem is you have to move to dodge the molotov, but as soon as you move you've lost the engagement due to lost accuracy and losing cover. Whereas for cons it's very easy to avoid rifle grenades (just stay close).

Whether this is a serious balance issue remains to be seen, because there are a lot more factors impacting balance than just these two units' engagement.

Grenadiers had their damage nerfed, their accuracy slightly buffed and their rate of fire slightly buffed. This could be what you are experiencing. I've noticed Grens performance vs cons to be worse off than they were before as a result of these changes (especially if the opponent is using con bulletins).

Its also a lot easier for cons to use molotovs vs Grens rifle grenade. So the Gren vs con engagement is pretty annoying right now. The problem is you have to move to dodge the molotov, but as soon as you move you've lost the engagement due to lost accuracy and losing cover. Whereas for cons it's very easy to avoid rifle grenades (just stay close).

Whether this is a serious balance issue remains to be seen, because there are a lot more factors impacting balance than just these two units' engagement.

The adjustments to grenadiers left their DPS almost exactly where it was pre-patch. The change was to prevent overkill on weapon teams. They still have exactly the same performance against conscripts. The DPS change was less than 1%.

ya DPS stay the same but i also felt gren vs con is bit weak than before, i use to have 3-4 grens and 2 pgrens now i am shift to 2 gren then T2 and get 4 pgrens

Grenadiers had their damage nerfed, their accuracy slightly buffed and their rate of fire slightly buffed. This could be what you are experiencing. I've noticed Grens performance vs cons to be worse off than they were before as a result of these changes (especially if the opponent is using con bulletins).

It could be that those changes on paper made no difference but in practice made some small difference because of other variables like, less reaction, inf movement, etc.

Its also a lot easier for cons to use molotovs vs Grens rifle grenade. So the Gren vs con engagement is pretty annoying right now. The problem is you have to move to dodge the molotov, but as soon as you move you've lost the engagement due to lost accuracy and losing cover. Whereas for cons it's very easy to avoid rifle grenades (just stay close).

Whether this is a serious balance issue remains to be seen, because there are a lot more factors impacting balance than just these two units' engagement.

I think Molotov can play into the hands of a good German players because you can almost always expect them to come close, giving you the advantage if you are in a good defensive position. By the time they reach you you already softened them up and that's when you rush into the conscripts denying them the ability to throw the Molotov and finishing off the fight quickly.

I too think grenadiers feel slightly weaker against conscripts after the damage change. I'd assume it mostly has to do with close range engagements where a lot of bullets that "miss" will still hit due to (lack of) scatter so the higher accuracy and firing rate do not fully compensate requiring one more bullet to kill a conscript.

It could be that those changes on paper made no difference but in practice made some small difference because of other variables like, less reaction, inf movement, etc.

I think this may be the case too - with the infantry auto-seeking cover all the time and running about not shooting, one more bullet to hit can take some time, especially if RNG is not on your side.

Um, the DPS is identical, so there's no serious change.

Arguably, the minimum amount of time it takes a gren to kill a conscript model if it gets really lucky has increased but your average engagement should be identical.

@GTTV, since two patches back the riflenade doesn't offer an audio warning until it's basically hit, so the riflenade is harder to dodge in general right now.

Um, the DPS is identical, so there's no serious change.

Arguably, the minimum amount of time it takes a gren to kill a conscript model if it gets really lucky has increased but your average engagement should be identical.

@GTTV, since two patches back the riflenade doesn't offer an audio warning until it's basically hit, so the riflenade is harder to dodge in general right now.

The molotov also does not offer an audio warning until it is too late. DPS may calculate to be the same on paper but considering the many other factors in an engagement and the RND factor DPS is not a hard and fast rule. The way these units now operate has been changed and they are noticeably worse in games, as others in this thread are finding. WHY that is cannot exactly be explained but it has definitely occurred.

It is definitely easier for cons to dodge riflenades than it is for gren to dodge molotovs. Especially considering the retarded AI - where grens jump into the fire even when telling them to move away. More importantly a molotov forces the units to move and stay out of cover whereas the riflenade can be dodged with units moving safely back to cover.

Right now the isolated Con V Gren situation is in the Cons favor.

...with the infantry auto-seeking cover all the time and running about not shooting...

I think this behavior got reduced in the current patch, actually.
From the patch notes:

Reaction Timers
• Squad reactions while in combat from 15s to 30s; this will reduce how frequently a unit reacts to incoming fire while in combat.
• Out of combat reaction timer from 5s to 25s; once again reducing how frequently a unit reacts to incoming fire while out of combat.

I think this behavior got reduced in the current patch, actually.
From the patch notes:

Only combat based AI retardation got reduced (this means that grenadiers stop jumping around due to PTRS shots as often). The random movement of squad members auto seeking cover or auto move closer to the target instead of shooting is still as present as ever.

So many times i put my infantry in green cover only to come back 10 seconds later and find half the squad standing on the road and dying.

The molotov also does not offer an audio warning until it is too late. DPS may calculate to be the same on paper but considering the many other factors in an engagement and the RND factor DPS is not a hard and fast rule. The way these units now operate has been changed and they are noticeably worse in games, as others in this thread are finding. WHY that is cannot exactly be explained but it has definitely occurred.

It is definitely easier for cons to dodge riflenades than it is for gren to dodge molotovs. Especially considering the retarded AI - where grens jump into the fire even when telling them to move away. More importantly a molotov forces the units to move and stay out of cover whereas the riflenade can be dodged with units moving safely back to cover.

Right now the isolated Con V Gren situation is in the Cons favor.

In general grenade warnings feel a bit slow. Riflenade is the most serious one right now. The molotov animation is a bit more conspicuous, and they have to close distance, so it's usually transparent when one's coming, and you get so many more opportunities to riflenade from out of LOS where you can't see the model aiming than to molotov from the same. Cover-seeking is a pain, I agree.

They're not noticeably worse in my games. This patch I've found that a lot more people are using the conscript upgrade bulletins + conscript spam, which could factor in. That could factor in, the basic unupgraded units on both side don't feel any different to me. I think we have some confirmation bias here.

In general grenade warnings feel a bit slow. Riflenade is the most serious one right now. The molotov animation is a bit more conspicuous, and they have to close distance, so it's usually transparent when one's coming, and you get so many more opportunities to riflenade from out of LOS where you can't see the model aiming than to molotov from the same. Cover-seeking is a pain, I agree.

They're not noticeably worse in my games. This patch I've found that a lot more people are using the conscript upgrade bulletins + conscript spam, which could factor in. That could factor in, the basic unupgraded units on both side don't feel any different to me. I think we have some confirmation bias here.

One point that I should raise here is that the Conscript 5% damage bulletin is theoretically much better relative to the Grenadier 4% damage one early game now that the base damage of the Grenadier got nerfed.

I don't know if it makes enough of a difference to drastically affect engagements, but it might once you factor in the different combinations of other Conscript/Grenadier bulletins that can be equipped.

I too think grenadiers feel slightly weaker against conscripts after the damage change. I'd assume it mostly has to do with close range engagements where a lot of bullets that "miss" will still hit due to (lack of) scatter so the higher accuracy and firing rate do not fully compensate requiring one more bullet to kill a conscript.

as far as i know, small arms shots that miss cant hit due to scatter. the scatter is just for show. only tanks have collision detection on missed shots. infantry can only be hit by scatter by weapons with AOE.

The molotov also does not offer an audio warning until it is too late. DPS may calculate to be the same on paper but considering the many other factors in an engagement and the RND factor DPS is not a hard and fast rule. The way these units now operate has been changed and they are noticeably worse in games, as others in this thread are finding. WHY that is cannot exactly be explained but it has definitely occurred.

It is definitely easier for cons to dodge riflenades than it is for gren to dodge molotovs. Especially considering the retarded AI - where grens jump into the fire even when telling them to move away. More importantly a molotov forces the units to move and stay out of cover whereas the riflenade can be dodged with units moving safely back to cover.

i agree with you that the molotov gives cons an advantage over the rifle nade. however, i disagree that there is some mysterious unexplainable change in gren performance. this whole game is nothing but numbers. everything can be explained through stats. claiming there was some change no one can explain is a cop out people use. unless someone can come up with a valid argument as to why grens are now weaker, im skeptical to believe it.

all of the changes that were made to the gren are incorporated into our dps calculation. as everyone has said, dps hasnt changed significantly. what people may notice is the grenadiers damage is now less spiky. if the grens got lucky, 20 damage per shot meant the first volley could kill a conscript entity. now grens shoot faster and more accurately. this makes their dps more consistent and actually closer to the dps number. before, if grens got enough lucky hits, their actual dps would be much higher than their dps on paper. the flip side of that is, if they were unlucky, they could also do much lower than their paper dps. grens are simply more consistent now.