Concerns of a COH fan

Hi there, i am a casual COH player. Who loves PVE gameplay just for the reason that it relexes me afther a long day work.
I play coh2 with intervals, a few weeks not, then a few weeks intensively. But lately i start to loose interest in the game because i feel that the coh2 policy for balance issues is just nerving units.

My problem is, that you give me something to play with, which i start to embrace after a few times playing, and after a while you nerve it to a point that its not worth playing with.
For example, the German mortar, German Stug and German AT gun. I don't know when you did it or why, but stop giving things and take it back. Find other ways for balancing and stop breaking the game for casual gamers.

I say this as a real fan of the genre and i know i will get a lot of criticism on this post from more "professional" pvp gamers. But it think that PVP playstyle is to dominate ATM at a point that it ruins my beloved game.

Hi there, i am a casual COH player. Who loves PVE gameplay just for the reason that it relexes me afther a long day work.
I play coh2 with intervals, a few weeks not, then a few weeks intensively. But lately i start to loose interest in the game because i feel that the coh2 policy for balance issues is just nerving units.

My problem is, that you give me something to play with, which i start to embrace after a few times playing, and after a while you nerve it to a point that its not worth playing with.
For example, the German mortar, German Stug and German AT gun. I don't know when you did it or why, but stop giving things and take it back. Find other ways for balancing and stop breaking the game for casual gamers.

I say this as a real fan of the genre and i know i will get a lot of criticism on this post from more "professional" pvp gamers. But it think that PVP playstyle is to dominate ATM at a point that it ruins my beloved game.

It's an open secret that most German stuff got overnerfed.

Now we ended up with infantry superiority (Brens, Bars, Guards, penals) AND tank destroyer superiority (60 range) all on one side.

Having Tigers being oneshot by the endgame is a thing now. And the stuff that actually performed (StuGs) went into mediocrity.

And don't even get me started on OKW. No vet advantage remaining, yet no ability to build caches and overpriced units. The KT is a meme by now.

The problem was that they hired biased community balancers.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p5

All in there. Things that are too strong get toned down, things that are too weak get tuned up.

I can understant the point, although the examples given are terrible. Pak40 hasnt't been nerfed at all this year if I remember correctly. Mortar and stug on the other hand were in the OP condition pretty much since games launch in 2013. So there was more than enough time to play with these toys. And they are both still very viable. Definitely viable enough for any match that is not top 20 competitive, let alone a compstomp.

I guess your best bet is either to read the list linked by Lago every time there is a patch and try to alter your strategies, or just disable updates in steam and play the same version of the game till the end of time.

Mortars are fine, they just got tweaked to be better at their jobs (attacking static positions and team weapons) and worse at attacking moving infantry.

The StuG's fine too. It's a casemate tank destroyer that's cheaper and more efficient than the Panzer IV. That hasn't changed.

Hi Ferwiner, thank you for you're replay. Let me clarify first that i dont want to start a faction discussion. There are enough on them in this forum. But with you're replay you are underline my point. That is that some people think units are OP compared to something, you just nerve. What i say stop nerving as a tool for balancing. You end up in a road where we all fail. I say stop nerving and give the opposit some decent counter abilities. But nerving is ofc the easy way ....

And because i could play 5 years with a toy that justifies that its being nerved to a point that humble me find its broken?

With that attitude you loose the interest of casual paying gamers. Who build the base of this game.

I agree that my examples are not the best, but i want to make a bigger point.

You end up in a road where we all fail. I say stop nerving and give the opposit some decent counter abilities.

For example?

EDIT: That wasn't very clear on my part.

Take the StuG. Before the last patch it was putting out too much damage and eclipsing OST's other AT options.

The balance team decided the best way to fix this was to lower its rate of fire a bit.

How would you do it differently?

Hi Ferwiner, thank you for you're replay. Let me clarify first that i dont want to start a faction discussion. There are enough on them in this forum. But with you're replay you are underline my point. That is that some people think units are OP compared to something, you just nerve. What i say stop nerving as a tool for balancing. You end up in a road where we all fail. I say stop nerving and give the opposit some decent counter abilities. But nerving is ofc the easy way ....

And because i could play 5 years with a toy that justifies that its being nerved to a point that humble me find its broken?

With that attitude you loose the interest of casual paying gamers. Who build the base of this game.

I agree that my examples are not the best, but i want to make a bigger point.

Like I said, I agree with you in general. I know that recent ballance patches tend to nerf multiple units making them bland and boring in effect, while in fact most people just want to beat some powerful unit with a powerful unit of their own. That said, although I say that from time to time here, I am unable to convince the key members of competitive community to that. That is why we are left with modifying the game for the ballance by making units weaker and weaker - becouse that is what top players want and you can't really win a ballance discussion against them.

As for the examples, what I wanted to said is that key stats of these units haven't been changed for five years, while all the rest of units changed. Let's take the german mortar example. At release it had 3 men crew and had to deal with precision strike from soviet mortar. Then it was given a 4th man and precision strike was removed making soviet 82mm mortar close to not existant and 120mm being used just for the umph. That ment the german mortar was greatly overpowered in comparison and everybody in the community seemed to agree on that. In effect it was the mortar that got changed.

For reasons like that, I would say that in case of mortar and stug, the nerfs were actually the right call, although in many other cases I would go for the buffs instead.

For reasons like that, I would say that in case of mortar and stug, the nerfs were actually the right call, although in many other cases I would go for the buffs instead.

It's all relative. Say instead of nerfing the StuG you buffed all the other tank destroyers to the StuG's level. That'd have the same effect on the StuG. However, it'd also make all tank destroyers more effective relative to generalist tanks. That effectively nerfs all the generalists in tank battles, which wasn't something you were trying to do.

Maybe you should look into modded coh2 if the standard game isn't satisfying you.

It's all relative. Say instead of nerfing the StuG you buffed all the other tank destroyers to the StuG's level. That'd have the same effect on the StuG. However, it'd also make all tank destroyers more effective relative to generalist tanks. That effectively nerfs all the generalists in tank battles, which wasn't something you were trying to do.

Of course, the point is though that after enough nerfs, units take ages to combat each other and don't feel powerful enough thus killing the immersion. You can argue that infantry and tanks fighting for a minute or so before conclusion give more time for micro and I would agree with that. But on the other hand, in initial design these units were aimed to be powerful beasts that would require tactical thinking before the fight to overcome. Take the old SU-85 for example. You either had to flank or build even bigger TD to counter it. Was it ballanced? In some way, but most people would say it wasn't. Was it fun and full of immersion? Yes it was. So what should have happened was to change the unit in a way that it was more ballanced without loosing its immersion, but what actually happened was nerfing the unit and then nerfing all its counters becouse everything seemed to be OP after such change. So what in fact happened, is not ballancing but taming these beasts so that they are weaker and nobody can say they are OP. Which is what makes game more and more boring in time.

There are in fact two sides of this argument. One is top of competitive community who were once interested in an immersive game but then decided to play it more seriously and the immersive features began to irritate them. On the other side are casual players who play the game for immersion only and get irritated every time some of it is taken away from them. I think I am somewhere in between as I mostly play automatch games, not to see my rank in top 10 but rather to find equal opponents, thus I think I can understand both sides and both competitive and immersive features of the game are important for me.

That's not unit-to-unit balance though, that's lethality.

the immersive features

Do you mean stuff like the Abandon mechanic?

The issue with stuff like that isn't the mechanic itself, it's that it's hugely impactful but has a very low probability of occuring. You can't really plan around it.

Deflection stuns were a similar issue before they were removed: being hit by a Tiger had a 5% or so chance to hard-stun your vehicle. Losing a fight to a 1 on a d20 was incredibly frustrating.

That's not unit-to-unit balance though, that's lethality.


Do you mean stuff like the Abandon mechanic?

The issue with stuff like that isn't the mechanic itself, it's that it's hugely impactful but has a very low probability of occuring. You can't really plan around it.

Deflection stuns were a similar issue before they were removed: being hit by a Tiger had a 5% or so chance to hard-stun your vehicle. Losing a fight to a 1 on a d20 was incredibly frustrating.

Yeah, the lethality is the point. Coh1 has always had too low lethality and it very good that relic decided to fix that with coh2. The problem is that in time, the lethality seemed to lower making the game less and less atractive. Lethality is one of the way of creating immersion as well, as soldiers not able to hit each other in a distance of 1 meter are a complete immersion breaker.

Do mind that lethality has nothing to do with actual ballance, but lots to do with percieved ballance, the one that makes people who play down there in the ladder still think they have something to say about actual ballance. That is becouse if lethality is high it is easy to say "Look at this unit. How strong it is. It is totally OP" and the more lethal units are the stronger is the bias of such players. That is how lethality drops over time, although in my opinion it is a bad thing.

As for abandon it is not really immersive, more like just an bit of a minigame to make the game more interesting overall. It might have too low of a probability at 5%, but it still does it job of turning the starcraft style of engagement when you always know the outcome, to coh style of engagement where what you mostly do is manage the risks and so you should always keep in mind that one additional shot may be needed to finish the engagement in case of unusual miss, deflection or abandon.

Yeah, the lethality is the point. Coh1 has always had too low lethality and it very good that relic decided to fix that with coh2. The problem is that in time, the lethality seemed to lower making the game less and less atractive. Lethality is one of the way of creating immersion as well, as soldiers not able to hit each other in a distance of 1 meter are a complete immersion breaker.

Do mind that lethality has nothing to do with actual ballance, but lots to do with percieved ballance, the one that makes people who play down there in the ladder still think they have something to say about actual ballance. That is becouse if lethality is high it is easy to say "Look at this unit. How strong it is. It is totally OP" and the more lethal units are the stronger is the bias of such players. That is how lethality drops over time, although in my opinion it is a bad thing.

As for abandon it is not really immersive, more like just an bit of a minigame to make the game more interesting overall. It might have too low of a probability at 5%, but it still does it job of turning the starcraft style of engagement when you always know the outcome, to coh style of engagement where what you mostly do is manage the risks and so you should always keep in mind that one additional shot may be needed to finish the engagement in case of unusual miss, deflection or abandon.

Low lethality? The 88 2 shot Shermans, and Stg Panzergrens destroyed infantry up close, of course longer range battles are gonna take a longer time.

Low lethality? The 88 2 shot Shermans, and Stg Panzergrens destroyed infantry up close, of course longer range battles are gonna take a longer time.

Have you ever played an early game in vcoh? Rifles and kar98 volks standing on top of each other and not able to hit. The lethality was not low. It was cringeworthy.

Maybe you should look into modded coh2 if the standard game isn't satisfying you.

^This

While other people seem to be derailing this topic with discussions outside what OP was talking about, I think Tightrope pretty much summed up the solution.

If you aren't happy with the way CoH1 is feels, there are plenty of mods in the steam workshop to try out. You could even modify the game yourself if you were feeling so bold... that way you could customize your own experience.

Hi there, i am a casual COH player. Who loves PVE gameplay just for the reason that it relexes me afther a long day work.
I play coh2 with intervals, a few weeks not, then a few weeks intensively. But lately i start to loose interest in the game because i feel that the coh2 policy for balance issues is just nerving units.

My problem is, that you give me something to play with, which i start to embrace after a few times playing, and after a while you nerve it to a point that its not worth playing with.
For example, the German mortar, German Stug and German AT gun. I don't know when you did it or why, but stop giving things and take it back. Find other ways for balancing and stop breaking the game for casual gamers.

I say this as a real fan of the genre and i know i will get a lot of criticism on this post from more "professional" pvp gamers. But it think that PVP playstyle is to dominate ATM at a point that it ruins my beloved game.

I'll echo tightrope and Nosliw's points here as well. The realm of PvE is the Steam Workshop. There are so many enjoyable mods that are really built around AI matches and casual gameplay in general. Not just mods, but there's a vast library of maps that would never be competitive for PvP automatch but are quite fun and immersive for a (co-op) game against AI.

Have you ever played an early game in vcoh? Rifles and kar98 volks standing on top of each other and not able to hit. The lethality was not low. It was cringeworthy.

I've been playing since 2006 and I have honestly never noticed that, with of course Rifles being better at close range whiles volks better at long range, I think it was the reverse with the PE and Brits.

Hi all, thank you all for you're positive contribution to this post.

And you are right, i should give a proper example.

Example
Every player has its own favourite faction. This resembles his or here play style. For me was this the Wehrmacht. Not for its armor but for the mechanics of the heavy support units. Mg42/Mortar/Pak backed up by Stug. The mortar played a essential role. It gave me a counter morter shield to protect my heavy weapens against other mortars. Especially effective with a vet 3 of its increased range. This gives me a choice when and or to go to Tier 4.

But in all here wisdom coh2 decided the following:

The escalation of mortar power has made them over perform compared to other types of more costly artillery pieces that had not received this bonus such as Pack Howitzers and Mortar Half-tracks.
Vet 3 no longer grants range increase to auto attacks.

And by changing this coh2 destroyed FOR ME one of the pillars why i choose the Wehr as my favourite faction. Let me explain in detail what i mean. The vet 3 range that they took away from me also nerved the counter barrage ability. (Automaticly counter ......). Now they force me to babysit my defence, and micro my morter. Imo you killed the, mechanic of leveling mortars to create an effective auto barrage, my static shield to protect my heavy support against mortars. And doing so they took a big chunk of fun out of my playstyle with the wehr. And with my playstyle forces me to go tier4. Why not make the mortar more expensive? No they nerved a very fun unit and with it the total value of the holy Wehr trinity mg42/mortar/pak.

Perspective
Now lets put this example in (my) perspective. I do not think the decision makers did think they would upset a normal bloke from Holland by nerving this mortar this way. I even don't have the illusion that if they know, they consider my wishes.
From my point of view you fixed A but created problem B. And this is what bothers me. I understand that balancing is hard , no even impossible with 5 factions. I think this is like walking in a mine field. Sooner or later you will step on one.

Back to my point Stop nerving (my toys).
Let me start by thanking everybody on this forum and the moderators. I also want the thank all the players i can see on live stream. You are all my heroes because you keep my game alive. I consider you all as the Formula 1 for the car industry. A think-tank and source of inspiration and innovation. I am however not so skilled in playing this game nor understand the full statistics of each unit. I am just the ordinary guy that buys the car en enjoy the fruit of you're work and thinking. And i will keep driving my car, buy upgrades and buy new versions. Some people would even call me a “happy customer”. And you're customer hates when you change his car when he is already driving it. I would not mind to bring my car back for an emergency mechanical issue but i will not accept that they change the colour of my car because they decide it does not match with the colour of their new home carpet. This is how i see it.

By continuous nerving (abilities) you create a situation that all factions become more/less the same. And i believe that one of the strengths of coh is it diversity in factions/gameplay. I agree that continuous nerving takes the fun out of the game. But what hate the most is altering faction mechanics as a result from nerving.

From a business perspective.
They keep putting resources in balancing the game, because the small elite thinks this is necessary. They tried this for 5 years and they still making balancing patches. Dont they realize you never can make the perfect balanced game with 5 factions. But no, they still keep spending resources in balancing a game because the “elite” says so?. And in the proses they start to ruin the game for me by making "mistakes" like my example. Put you're recoures to better use. Make more content that I can buy so you can make more money. You're shareholders happy, ur boss happy, i hope a nice Christmas bonus for all direct involved in making this game, but most of all happy customer who loves playing coh on a saterday evening. And not continues get surprised with, what the hell did they do this time.

PS: thank to you Ferwiner for giving me info how intern politics work there. I also value ur insight about the difficulties you/ they have with balancing the game for all its players. I hope i can make a small contribution to you're case. But to be honest, i think my post will not have any effect on people who are stuck in their micro world and not able to see the bigger picture.

Wehrmacht is arguably best faction in COH2 right now. Wehrmacht recieved minor nerfs to OP units but that´s it. They weren´t rendered useless or anything. I don´t get what the problem is. You can still get Ost mortars, Ost stugs, Ost pak40s etc etc. They still perform the same role as before, just not completly OP anymore but somewhat balanced.