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russian armor

Impact of smoke on AT grenades

9 Aug 2018, 17:40 PM
#1
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

I see no reason why Satchel and other AT nades should be useable throught smoke but the Panzerfaust shouldn't. In my opinion Satchels and every other AT nade in the game should't be useable throught smoke. There is just no reason that certain types of AT nades have such an unfair advantage.
9 Aug 2018, 18:00 PM
#2
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

It's one of the best counters to Panzer Tactician, it's fine the way it works, the Panzerfaust has a lot of advantages over Allied Snares... Not counting the bug that makes it miss or the fact the Brits don't have snares to begin with.
9 Aug 2018, 18:32 PM
#3
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

It's one of the best counters to Panzer Tactician

So allies should be able to counter tank smoke but axis should not?

it's fine the way it works, the Panzerfaust has a lot of advantages over Allied Snares


For example ?
9 Aug 2018, 18:42 PM
#4
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

Besides the AEC, which Allied Tank has Ninja Smoke?

Smoother animation, no vet, side tech or doctrinal unit required, not having a Panzerfaust is considered a weakness in many Axis Infantry units.
9 Aug 2018, 18:54 PM
#5
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

Besides the AEC, which Allied Tank has Ninja Smoke?

With the "Vehicle Crew Repairs" ability of the UKF basically all UKF vehicles and the Sherman.



Smoother animation, no vet, side tech or doctrinal unit required, not having a Panzerfaust is considered a weakness in many Axis Infantry units.

Setting up one truck can last longer than gaining Vet 1. No side tech is required for Satchel or Tank hunter tactics nades either. The side tech is also compensated by Axis usually having more expensive tech ups

10 Aug 2018, 00:28 AM
#6
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

Vehicle Crew Repairs inmobilizes you, you can just attack ground it until it dies, you know?
The Sherman smoke is better for covering assaults than retreating through it, it's one click to select and click to throw, while Panzer Tactician is ninja smoke on a Tank. Totally different.
Peniles lose AI power for getting access to the sticky satchel, you know which squads can throw it and which ones you can bumrush, Dank Hunter Sections are doctrinal. You give up things to get them, while Panzerfaust access is guarenteed by just teching up, making it more ubiquitious.
If you get a tank into a position to be snared I don't see why Ninja Panzer Tactician Smoke should save you.
10 Aug 2018, 01:36 AM
#7
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

If the Faust was to be uneffected it would need to be lost when volks upgrade to STGs because it is easily the most plentiful and least... All drawbacked? Snare in the game (durable core infantry with no side costs or hoops that doesn't need anything at all but playing to get but also on infantry designed for mobility and attack move and blob potential?) it would at least give a reason to maybe not brainless auto upgrade every squad...
10 Aug 2018, 07:59 AM
#8
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

If the Faust was to be uneffected it would need to be lost when volks upgrade to STGs


Other fractions don't have this either so no. Also this would mean that you would either have to do without snare as OKW or see your troops dying


it is easily the most plentiful and least... All drawbacked? Snare in the game


Least drawbacked? As far as I know only Panzerfaust is bugged (and satchel when you throw it at Sdkfz 250)and it can not be used throught smoke and neither do you have somthing like the "Uraa" ability for your infantry. What other drawbacks for snares are there ?





durable core infantry with no side costs or hoops that doesn't need anything at all but playing


More sounds like USF snare.
And the side tech costs for allies are compensated by a higher tech up prize for Axis.

So yea... In my opinion no snare should be useable throught smoke.
10 Aug 2018, 16:57 PM
#9
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Other fractions don't have this either so no. Also this would mean that you would either have to do without snare as OKW or see your troops dying


"Penal Battalions are losing their Anti-tank "sticky" satchel on squads not upgraded with the PTRS package to increase the number of counters that can be fielded and to create a stronger trade-off between anti-infantry and anti-tank. The unit will also now take longer to reach its full potential through veterancy to match their combat performance."

"RPG-40 Anti-Tank Grenade Assault
Replaces RPG-43 Anti-Tank Grenade when Conscript PTRS package is upgraded

Aim-time from 2 to 1.375
Wind-up from 0.25 to 0.125
Range from 15 to 18
Damage from 80 to 50
Penetration from 100 to 150
Causes engine damage at 75% health
Can be avoided if out of range before the grenades are thrown; grenades will home onto targets when tossed"


Least drawbacked? As far as I know only Panzerfaust is bugged (and satchel when you throw it at Sdkfz 250)and it can not be used throught smoke and neither do you have somthing like the "Uraa" ability for your infantry. What other drawbacks for snares are there ?


Gammon bomb: high damage, no homing, guaranteed pen and small range 5/12. 0.26 rdy + aim and 0.25/0.75 wind up/down.
Critical shot (sniper): vet1 and i'm not sure if it's a engine snare on all or if in any vehicle.
Heat nade (AT IS): 0-20 range. 100 pen across board. Rdy+aim 1-2 and 0.25/0.75 wnd. 100/80 dmg

Volks Faust: 150/140/130. 0-20 range. 100/80 dmg. 0.26 rdy+aim and 1.53/1.2 wnd
Gren/Falls Faust: 160/150/140. 0-30 range. 100/45 dmg equal rdy+aim and wind as Volks.
PF AT nade: equal to AT IS heat nade but with 0-30 range. 2.13 rdy+aim and 0/0.75 wnd.

Rifles At nade: vet1. equal to PF. Note: IIRC all related flying life time on snares had been fixed.

Osstruppen = Gren faust

Conscripts/Partisans: same as PF with 0-20 range. 0.26 rdy+aim and 0.125/0.75 wnd.
Penal with PTRS: 0-10 homing. 340 dmg guaranteed pen. 0.26 n 0.75/0.75
Conscript assault nade: 50/40 dmg. 150 pen across board. 0/50 range. 0.26-2.76 rdy+aim and 0.125/0.75 wnd.


Now, for even more fringe cases AKA "YEAH CONSISTENCY".
I cut down this part cause it was a mess. Some nades have no AoE drop off, some have lethal FF radius. Someone will have to test it, but can you target AT nades (assault AT nades, AT nades, Faust) to neutral buildings/garrisonable emplacements ? And if so, how much damage it does against squad garrisoned in.




10 Aug 2018, 18:56 PM
#10
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



"Penal Battalions are losing their Anti-tank "sticky" satchel on squads not upgraded with the PTRS package to increase the number of counters that can be fielded and to create a stronger trade-off between anti-infantry and anti-tank. The unit will also now take longer to reach its full potential through veterancy to match their combat performance."

"RPG-40 Anti-Tank Grenade Assault
Replaces RPG-43 Anti-Tank Grenade when Conscript PTRS package is upgraded




What about PPsh 41 Concripts or BAR Rifles?


And thanks for the stats (are they still accurate and what does "wnd" stand for?)
10 Aug 2018, 19:40 PM
#11
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



What about PPsh 41 Concripts or BAR Rifles?


And thanks for the stats (are they still accurate and what does "wnd" stand for?)


Stats from Cruzz dps charts.
Wnd stands for wind up/down.

You said other factions "don't have this either" or which are the drawbacks from other snares. I just gave you, i think, the full panorama.
Whether that merits Volks snare to change or not is up to people interpretations (i think the current status quou is fine).

Cons PPSH: requires teching and is inferior stat wise.
Bar Rifles: requires vet and is inferior stat wise.
10 Aug 2018, 20:49 PM
#12
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


Cons PPSH: requires teching and is inferior stat wise.
Bar Rifles: requires vet and is inferior stat wise.


A bad snare is still better than no snare at all (and as far as I know the Tier-Up prizes for axis are meant to compensate allies teching)




You said other factions "don't have this either" or which are the drawbacks from other snares. I just gave you, i think, the full panorama.


With the "don't have this either" I was referring to the loss of snares when upgrading SMGs, Submachine guns etc.

10 Aug 2018, 21:42 PM
#13
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711


...and neither do you have somthing like the "Uraa" ability for your infantry.

IIRC if you choose doctrine with g43 and stealth suits, your infantry get sprint ability. Also OKW falshs doctrine have copy of ability "For Mother Russia" with increased accuracy and instant sprint.
11 Aug 2018, 00:38 AM
#14
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

They are usable through smoke because otherwise Panzer Tactician will become even more broken than it currently is.
/thread
11 Aug 2018, 06:15 AM
#15
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2018, 21:42 PMMaret

IIRC if you choose doctrine with g43 and stealth suits, your infantry get sprint ability. Also OKW falshs doctrine have copy of ability "For Mother Russia" with increased accuracy and instant sprint.


Was talking about non Doctrinal abilities. If we count doctrinal abilities in then even Penals can sprint.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2018, 00:38 AMKirrik
They are usable through smoke because otherwise Panzer Tactician will become even more broken than it currently is.
/thread


So Allies having a "out of jail card" is fine but Axis not ?
11 Aug 2018, 06:58 AM
#16
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518








Gammon bomb: high damage, no homing, guaranteed pen and small range 5/12. 0.26 rdy + aim and 0.25/0.75 wind up/down.
Critical shot (sniper): vet1 and i'm not sure if it's a engine snare on all or if in any vehicle.
Heat nade (AT IS): 0-20 range. 100 pen across board. Rdy+aim 1-2 and 0.25/0.75 wnd. 100/80 dmg

Volks Faust: 150/140/130. 0-20 range. 100/80 dmg. 0.26 rdy+aim and 1.53/1.2 wnd
Gren/Falls Faust: 160/150/140. 0-30 range. 100/45 dmg equal rdy+aim and wind as Volks.
PF AT nade: equal to AT IS heat nade but with 0-30 range. 2.13 rdy+aim and 0/0.75 wnd.

Rifles At nade: vet1. equal to PF. Note: IIRC all related flying life time on snares had been fixed.

Osstruppen = Gren faust

Conscripts/Partisans: same as PF with 0-20 range. 0.26 rdy+aim and 0.125/0.75 wnd.
Penal with PTRS: 0-10 homing. 340 dmg guaranteed pen. 0.26 n 0.75/0.75
Conscript assault nade: 50/40 dmg. 150 pen across board. 0/50 range. 0.26-2.76 rdy+aim and 0.125/0.75 wnd.


Now, for even more fringe cases AKA "YEAH CONSISTENCY".
I cut down this part cause it was a mess. Some nades have no AoE drop off, some have lethal FF radius. Someone will have to test it, but can you target AT nades (assault AT nades, AT nades, Faust) to neutral buildings/garrisonable emplacements ? And if so, how much damage it does against squad garrisoned in.






I just tested the different snares in game and it seems like the range datas are incorrect. Rifles AT nade has no 30 range, Grens 30 range seems unlikly too (it is only a bit more than Volks one (maybe 25?)) and 18 range for RPG 40 also seems wrong (should be higher).
I can show some screenshots if you want.
11 Aug 2018, 07:26 AM
#17
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2018, 00:38 AMKirrik
They are usable through smoke because otherwise Panzer Tactician will become even more broken than it currently is.
/thread


And this doesn't apply to Allied smoke, why exactly?
I see no reason why Allied snares should work through smoke while Axis snares do not. The Panzerfaust does not have any significant advantages to justify this. Either all snares should work through smoke or none of them should.
11 Aug 2018, 08:43 AM
#18
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

What ally smoke? Soviets do no have smoke at all. USF only has Sherman smoke and that can hardly be used as getaway tool. Brits have ninja smoke on their armored car but thats it.
Meanwhile entire ostheer roster has it, plus camo and smoke on lots of OKW vehicles
11 Aug 2018, 09:16 AM
#19
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2018, 08:43 AMKirrik
What ally smoke? Soviets do no have smoke at all. USF only has Sherman smoke and that can hardly be used as getaway tool. Brits have ninja smoke on their armored car but thats it.
Meanwhile entire ostheer roster has it, plus camo and smoke on lots of OKW vehicles


Smoke on lots of OKW vehicles ? Puma, Flaktruck and ?
And entire UKF has smoke too (with the "Vehicle Crew Repairs" ability and even without this ability Cromwell,Valentine,Churchill and Comet can use smoke ). And it is not only about Panzertactician. Russian AT nades can also be used through Smoke barriers of Planes (and maybe mortar ones too, didn't test it yet) while Panzerfaust can't.


11 Aug 2018, 09:50 AM
#20
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

It may be worth actually confirming if this even can be changed before spending several pages arguing about it. It might just be another symptom of the buggy panzerfaust animation.
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