SU-76

What if both SU-76 and StuG III can switch ammo types? Assault guns were meant for infantry support, and while killing tanks was part of that role, so was displacing fortified positions (like the pesky MG in the VP building). The HE shell should not replace any abilities, but the SU's Barrage ability should require HE shells be loaded and the StuG's Target Weak Point ability should require AP rounds loaded.

Actually you are doing that not me.



Since according to you SU-76 can counter anything up to and including the P4 the unit is fine.

1. not really since i mentioned comparing the SU-76 to what it faces and the stug to what it faces... currently the SU-76 is much worse off...

2. because due to its awful accuracy it doesnt even hard counter light vehicles... you know how many times an SU-76 can miss against a halftrack?

So what you're saying is that units that come later and are more expansive are make older units obsolete? Well that's kinda the point.

well not exactly... most units retain their use and do not become obsolete later in the game... the T-70 remains a scouting tank... the luchs aswell... the stug is the premier wehrmacht tank destroyer even after t4... engies and mainline infantry retain their uses...

i could go on but point is most units dont become completely redundant and still have a role to fill even after teching up... the SU-76 has none of that... T-34s outdo its anti infantry and has ram which turns it into a 90 fuel AT nade... SU-85s outdo its anti tank has focused sight and tracking...

the old SU-76 was also really useful as a barrage tool... a role no other soviet unit except the AT gun could do

1. what's the point of accurate gun wiht only 50 range ?

2. u mean target weak point i guess it's good but it does not deal wiht infantry like the barrage of the su 76 or gets almost auto spot wiht traking while also giving FOW info


see anyone can cherry pick only the thing they dont like if the su 76 had perfect accuracy at long range and even more pen then it would be op u can't just patch up an unit weakness if not we would see anti mortar mg, teleporting mortar, 360 cone at gun with 50 armor

1. because it hits shit... the SU-76 is terrible at doing just that...

2. yes and you cant cherry pick abilities to raw performance... which the stug mostly does better... regardless its apples and oranges with the main similarity being both were nerfed during the last patch... and the main difference being... one being bad at both its roles and the other doing pretty good in its respective roles...

the double whammy nerf kinda made the thing useless... most of the time i can stick by a zis gun all the way to the 85...

3. nah man im not saying give it god AT or give it a god barrage.... im saying give it either anti medium capability or HE rounds/free barrage


remember
options:
1. (anti medium tank)... do the first iteration of the SU-76 where it had high long range accuracy and kept its old ROF but with lower long range penetration to keep its efficiency vs mediums... barrage ability reverted aswell... kinda intersects with the SU-85 tbh

2. (anti infantry tank)... replace the barrage ability with an HE shell ability similar to the sherman...nerf current AT capabilities if need be...

3. revert either the AT or the AI nerf but not both...

well not exactly... most units retain their use and do not become obsolete later in the game... the T-70 remains a scouting tank... the luchs aswell... the stug is the premier wehrmacht tank destroyer even after t4... engies and mainline infantry retain their uses...

And GASP as the game goes on longer that 35 muni baragge costs less and less.

gbem, really excellent job to try to convince these guys to know that SU-76 is currently under power. I think your first idea sounds good to me. Here is why:
Since most of these people here agree that SU-76 is an AT Platform but not an AI vehicle, I did a test. From my pre-patch successful experience, if you want to make SU-76 lethal enough you have to build at least 4 of them. So the total resources cost is 1120 MP and 300 fuel, which is more than the cost of a JT or a elephant. The test is simple, try to compare the kill time that four su76s use to destroy two panthers, and one elephant plus one pak40( total of 1040 MP and 265 fuel) time to kill two t34/85s and one t34/76. The result was quite shocking even to myself since I have given up using Su76 after the recent patch. Su76s use the exact same time to kill two Panthers with tones of non-pen and misses, which when elephant and pak are killing t34s like chewing jelly. Please keep in mind, even after building the elephants and a pak, the total price is still lower than the total cost of 4 SUs; 2 Panthers have a total HP of 1920, and 2 t34/85 plus t34/76 have HP of 2320. Please point me out if there is anything wrong with the HP value and the cost.

And GASP as the game goes on longer that 35 muni baragge costs less and less.

35 muni better spent on a mine... with 5 extra...

gbem, really excellent job to try to convince these guys to know that SU-76 is currently under power. I think your first idea sounds good to me. Here is why:
Since most of these people here agree that SU-76 is an AT Platform but not an AI vehicle, I did a test. From my pre-patch successful experience, if you want to make SU-76 lethal enough you have to build at least 4 of them. So the total resources cost is 1120 MP and 300 fuel, which is more than the cost of a JT or a elephant. The test is simple, try to compare the kill time that four su76s use to destroy two panthers, and one elephant plus one pak40( total of 1040 MP and 265 fuel) time to kill two t34/85s and one t34/76. The result was quite shocking even to myself since I have given up using Su76 after the recent patch. Su76s use the exact same time to kill two Panthers with tones of non-pen and misses, which when elephant and pak are killing t34s like chewing jelly. Please keep in mind, even after building the elephants and a pak, the total price is still lower than the total cost of 4 SUs; 2 Panthers have a total HP of 1920, and 2 t34/85 plus t34/76 have HP of 2320. Please point me out if there is anything wrong with the HP value and the cost.

well for starters the first change wouldnt really improve its performance against the panther.. which isnt really its intended target... what it would improve is its performance against its intended target the panzer 4... which would be a pretty good change as the SU-76 can be the dedicated light AT unit it was supposed to be...

otherwise giving it better anti infantry works aswell as in real life it was used more as an infantry support weapon over an anti tank platform...

dont u understand that you get a good mobile AT gun with good rof, high range AND a Arty barrag where you can often wipe out teamweapon and blobbs, houses and defense positions?

on huge range? on some maps you can shot above half of the map with it!

you get 2in1 unit! where is this for axis? not one single axis tank can shot on such huge range!

dont u understand that you get a good mobile AT gun with good rof, high range AND a Arty barrag where you can often wipe out teamweapon and blobbs, houses and defense positions?

on huge range? on some maps you can shot above half of the map with it!

you get 2in1 unit! where is this for axis? not one single axis tank can shot on such huge range!

1. let me stop you on the word good... its accuracy is horrible and its damage is low... its range means jack shit with horrible accuracy and its mounted on a chassis that dies to a sneeze

2. shoot half the map??? only artillery pieces and the jagdtiger can do that which is by the way axis... ohh by the way the best arty pieces ingame are all in the axis side... stuka zu fuss and pwerf wipe squads and blobs far more efficiently than the katyusha... and OKW even gets a free maphack ability to boot... and then ofc ost gets the turbomortar... and okw gets the LEIG...

all of it non doctrinal btw except the jagdtiger

3. jagdtiger... that thing has shells which can damage infantry... and has more range SU-76s... and can shoot thru shot blockers with its ability... the jagdpanzer can also outshoot all allied TDS unless well microed...

i hear u bitch about the allies alot yet you fail to notice it was the axis who consistently had the highest winrates in the tournament... you better keep that bias in check m8...

regardless i dont mind axis getting all of those tools really... this thread is about the SU-76 being weak...

1. let me stop you on the word good... its accuracy is horrible and its damage is low... its range means jack shit with horrible accuracy and its mounted on a chassis that dies to a sneeze

2. shoot half the map??? only artillery pieces and the jagdtiger can do that which is by the way axis... ohh by the way the best arty pieces ingame are all in the axis side... stuka zu fuss and pwerf wipe squads and blobs far more efficiently than the katyusha... and OKW even gets a free maphack ability to boot... and then ofc ost gets the turbomortar... and okw gets the LEIG...

all of it non doctrinal btw except the jagdtiger

3. jagdtiger... that thing has shells which can damage infantry... and has more range SU-76s... and can shoot thru shot blockers with its ability... the jagdpanzer can also outshoot all allied TDS unless well microed...

i hear u bitch about the allies alot yet you fail to notice it was the axis who consistently had the highest winrates in the tournament... you better keep that bias in check m8...

regardless i dont mind axis getting all of those tools really... this thread is about the SU-76 being weak...

you havent used this jagdtiger abilty often, right? it doesnt have such wiping potencial like the barrage from Su.
and...this little jgtiger is doc, 15cp, 280fuel unit, which cant defend themself, once flanked its dead, very slow and comes also very late!

at this state of game it has other things to do than shoot on mgs.

you blame the accracy from a su? on 60range? even with vet 3? cant understand. look at this pricetag from this thing. its totally cheap and spamable 3-4 from them you can oneshot most mediums. very nice..and than bomb the hell out of your enemys infantery.

dies to a snezze? how do you handle this td? it isnt a brawler..it shouldnt used at the first line. but i can deal with mostly 2-3 hits. its ok.

what do u expect? a cheap unit, which has higher range than stug, can barrage like a arty, is fast, can used as brawler, and has high accurracy?

sorry bro...

you havent used this jagdtiger abilty often, right? it doesnt have such wiping potencial like the barrage from Su.
and...this little jgtiger is doc, 15cp, 280fuel unit, which cant defend themself, once flanked its dead, very slow and comes also very late!

at this state of game it has other things to do than shoot on mgs.

you blame the accracy from a su? on 60range? even with vet 3? cant understand. look at this pricetag from this thing. its totally cheap and spamable 3-4 from them you can oneshot most mediums. very nice..and than bomb the hell out of your enemys infantery.

dies to a snezze? how do you handle this td? it isnt a brawler..it shouldnt used at the first line. but i can deal with mostly 2-3 hits. its ok.

what do u expect? a cheap unit, which has higher range than stug, can barrage like a arty, is fast, can used as brawler, and has high accurracy?

sorry bro...

1. the JT can kill infantry efficiently from long ranges... not as deadly as a barrage but far more consistent

2. the accuracy of the SU without vet is too low... might be better to change the veterancy a bit to make it more consistent

3. mmkay... if i shoot from the back i wont hit anything bcz its accuracy sucks... if i go in i cant kill anything bcz it will die... catch 22

3. no i expect it to be a cheap unit that either has good anti infantry or good anti tank rather than smth that sucks at both

1. the JT can kill infantry efficiently from long ranges... not as deadly as a barrage but far more consistent

2. the accuracy of the SU without vet is too low... might be better to change the veterancy a bit to make it more consistent

3. mmkay... if i shoot from the back i wont hit anything bcz its accuracy sucks... if i go in i cant kill anything bcz it will die... catch 22

3. no i expect it to be a cheap unit that either has good anti infantry or good anti tank rather than smth that sucks at both

1. this is a lie.

2. welcome to coh2! where vet is more important than mostly other things. you shouldnet compare vet0 units performanche. since this thing vet faster than most other units ingame vet0 isnt relevant. vet3 is good boost for this unit...so handle this 5-6 minutes and reach the vet3 and wonder how strong it is.

3. same here: wait to vet3 and than blame.

4. it is good vs both targets..for its pricetag

I haven't read through the whole topic but where did we start to compare the SU76 to the Jagdtiger lol?

Su76 is imo fine. Still has nice penetration, Muni cost on barrage brings consistency with the Zis and makes the SU76 much less a Jack of all Trades.

The Su76s biggest flaws are its low HP and the lack of a turret. It shares these problems with the StuG that has more HP but also the same mobility issues all TDs in the games have, while also being more expensive and lacking a barrage ability. Meanwhile the Target Weakpoint makes it better for hunting tanks.

I personally would place the SU76 as a "Light Tank Hunter" on the same level as e.g. the Luchs is a Light AI Vehicle. It is very powerful in the mid game but might go under in the late without proper vet.

A properly supported SU76 (mines / AT nades) can screw a Panzer IV which is double the cost and way more drastic to lose than a 76 could ever be. Also, the SU76 eats 3 PaK shot and dies. This is a very good case of the Rock/Paper/Scissor sheme of the game. This is balanced. Making the Su76 to be reliably able to take out PaKs without exposing itself for free(!!) is not.

1. this is a lie.

2. welcome to coh2! where vet is more important than mostly other things. you shouldnet compare vet0 units performanche. since this thing vet faster than most other units ingame vet0 isnt relevant. vet3 is good boost for this unit...so handle this 5-6 minutes and reach the vet3 and wonder how strong it is.

3. same here: wait to vet3 and than blame.

4. it is good vs both targets..for its pricetag

1. its HE is just as effective as that of a medium tank dont BS m8...and yet far more consistent than the barrage

2. its vet 0 performance is soo bad it doesnt do its role at all

3. vet 5 jagdtiger... just no

4. it sucks vs light vehicles as it barely kills them and has to spend munitions to even damage infantry

1. not really since i mentioned comparing the SU-76 to what it faces and the stug to what it faces... currently the SU-76 is much worse off...

2. because due to its awful accuracy it doesnt even hard counter light vehicles... you know how many times an SU-76 can miss against a halftrack?

There is a great difference between saying that a unit sucks and that it does not "hard counter" light vehicles.

Puma has worse accuracy than SU-76 and you are not complaining about it, or saying it sucks.

I have explained many time that imo TDs should be separated in categories like "medium tank Destroyers" and "heavy tank destroyers" with MTD having good chance to hit but low to penetrate and HTD having low chance to hit but good to penetrate.

So it is my opinion that SU-76 should have its accuracy increased, its penetration reduced, the barrage moved to vet ability, its XP value increased and its vet bonuses revisited so that they increase its penetration. That does not mean that I agree that the SU-76 actually sucks now.

There is a great difference between saying that a unit sucks and that it does not "hard counter" light vehicles.

Puma has worse accuracy than SU-76 and you are not complaining about it, or saying it sucks.

I have explained many time that imo TDs should be separated in categories like "medium tank Destroyers" and "heavy tank destroyers" with MTD having good chance to hit but low to penetrate and HTD having low chance to hit but good to penetrate.

So it is my opinion that SU-76 should have its accuracy increased, its penetration reduced, the barrage moved to vet ability, its XP value increased and its vet bonuses revisited so that they increase its penetration. That does not mean that I agree that the SU-76 actually sucks now.

im saying it sucks simply because it is bad at its role... which is stopgap AT-lategame HE platform... it sucks as a light AT platform since it cant really hit anything and is bad as an HE platform since it has to pay 35 muni for a barrage...

but yeah id guess one thing we can agree on is the SU-76 needs a rework

and the puma may have less accuracy but is faster has a turret and can rapid smoke encircle targets... pretty good in its role as a finisher tank to kill those stragglers

I haven't read through the whole topic but where did we start to compare the SU76 to the Jagdtiger lol?

Su76 is imo fine. Still has nice penetration, Muni cost on barrage brings consistency with the Zis and makes the SU76 much less a Jack of all Trades.

The Su76s biggest flaws are its low HP and the lack of a turret. It shares these problems with the StuG that has more HP but also the same mobility issues all TDs in the games have, while also being more expensive and lacking a barrage ability. Meanwhile the Target Weakpoint makes it better for hunting tanks.

I personally would place the SU76 as a "Light Tank Hunter" on the same level as e.g. the Luchs is a Light AI Vehicle. It is very powerful in the mid game but might go under in the late without proper vet.

A properly supported SU76 (mines / AT nades) can screw a Panzer IV which is double the cost and way more drastic to lose than a 76 could ever be. Also, the SU76 eats 3 PaK shot and dies. This is a very good case of the Rock/Paper/Scissor sheme of the game. This is balanced. Making the Su76 to be reliably able to take out PaKs without exposing itself for free(!!) is not.

the SU-76s biggest flaw imho is not the lack of the turret or the paper armor but rather the inaccuracy... its speed and range compensate for the lack of turret and the paper thing armor...

but the lack of accuracy renders its gun nearly useless at long range... and vulnerable at close range... and a properly supported SU-76 is gonna have trouble hitting the panzer 4 even with an AT nade... at which point it becomes redundant... too inaccurate to hit anything... too expensive a barrage ability... tries to be a jack of all trades... but fails badly...

im saying it sucks simply because it is bad at its role...

It simply does not. It perform very good for price, tech cost and Pop.