vCOH - Counter to Support Vet strat? MG spam?

Probably an old question but I don't know the answer:

If they use vetted flamers into heavy MG42 (2-3), what is the US counter? 2-3 m8s? WSC? I can see a couple of snipers being very powerful but susceptible to mines and early Pumas or Ostwind.

Another strat I had trouble with was MG spam on langres (US in north position). he had 4 MGs and then went straight to Puma and StuG combo. I built a fairly quick m8 but it didn't seem to clear enough for my rifles to have an effect, and ran into the T3 fairly quickly.

Sorry, the replay is on another computer. My problem is I saw what he was doing but wasn't sure of the best counter. So far only suggestion I got was be patient, try to hold what you have, and build a couple of snipers.

snipers and then AT guns!

Not exactly the response I was looking for. A bit more detail would help. Two AT's? One to voer the other to move out to kill armor? What if there is always a 2nd Puma (there was) to flank the rear AT? Snipers won't stop that. Pumas come out faster than an AT gun.

Really Spanky, if someone is asking for help, a bit more than 3 words would help. If it was as easy as 3 words I probably would not have been in that trouble.

You could take advice with a bit more grace. No-one owes you anything.

To expand on what Spanky said, If they're your only solid AT available, get two at-guns (Spanky does actually say guns plural). If you get one it's easily flanked by a Puma (and lots else) and then you're stuffed. Have one AT gun slightly behind the other, covering the exposed flank of the first.

If you're in a sticky situation, you can use fast deployment from Armor doctrine to decrease AT gun build time.

against multi vetted flamers you need your own flamers and bars help too. Are we talking blobs here or just a couple pios? I played this guy once who built 10 pios, vet 3, flamers on most. Took me 3 or 4 games to figure it out. Strafe was big help too.

By the time you notice a vetted T1 strat, you've made your tech choice, either nades, bars, or SY. So you have to adjust accordingly. If you're on SY, then M8, get some mine sweepers and go to work. Harassing his base and then maybe dropping arty on key building is nice.

If you went bars or nades, it's tricky because flanking will be difficult with multi MG. Probably need to go WSC and go mortar and sniper. Have Airborne or Rangers as back up AT last resort. Place your own mines all over to hold off a base rush or cut off move. Keep him off fuel so he can't go fast and multiple puma. Buy time to get your T4 up.

against multi vetted flamers you need your own flamers and bars help too. Are we talking blobs here or just a couple pios? I played this guy once who built 10 pios, vet 3, flamers on most. Took me 3 or 4 games to figure it out. Strafe was big help too.

By the time you notice a vetted T1 strat, you've made your tech choice, either nades, bars, or SY. So you have to adjust accordingly. If you're on SY, then M8, get some mine sweepers and go to work. Harassing his base and then maybe dropping arty on key building is nice.

If you went bars or nades, it's tricky because flanking will be difficult with multi MG. Probably need to go WSC and go mortar and sniper. Have Airborne or Rangers as back up AT last resort. Place your own mines all over to hold off a base rush or cut off move. Keep him off fuel so he can't go fast and multiple puma. Buy time to get your T4 up.

Thank you. It wasn't pio spam I was dealing with and no vet. He was putting fuel into T3 units. I lost an m8 fairly early after trying to clear some MGs (cleared one, started on another, then moved to save rifles from puma, then lost it to an appearing StuG). I was not playing well as I was trying to be aggressive. That probably lost me too much MP and the Puma lost me a rifle, another to desperately trying to sticky stuff. The Ab squad I dropped also lost me mp but I was banking on its more mobile AT power.

The opponent was not great (yep, still good enough to beat me) as I was able to kill one Puma and damage another severely with a satchel charge of all things. But by that time it was the mg pins that had me frozen.

Pio spam (x4) into T2 and vet is something I have also faced only once (badly). As far as I can tell the response is 2 snipers and a fast T4.

I am still learning vCOH (and enjoying it). It seems more fun than what people describe about COH2.

Ab not good against t3 perse. I think rangers are better, plus they come equipped with zooks. So you put the muni to use in mines that you would use on RR. You really need AT gun, but rangers better than paratrooper as last resort, against T3. And really T4 is the counter to wehr t3.

I usually play as wehr, but started playing US lately. At my lev (about 13/14) I'm seeing a lot of t1-t3 play. Still trying to figure it out myself. If you don't have mines down and you're holding off with only Rangers or Paratrooper, and even 1 AT, you're done. It's very difficult to beat.

I usually don't play t1-t3 when playing as wehr, but I'm finding it really difficult to beat. As US, if you go Bars, you spent fuel before his tech choice. If you go M8, it'll help, but once stugs and storm roll out out, you're now out teched. In the latter, your M8 can hold off the puma/s, and then you can go AB, para and At guns (in preparation for Stugs), backed up by snipers. But if you go bars first and don't hold him off fuel, you're in trouble. Mine spam to hold off until you can get T4

If he's using pioneers as his primary fighting units, then they're going to be extremely vulnerable to snipers. As soon as you see a clear absence of T1, build a WSC (preferably after at least 2 rifles though as cappers and meat shields) and pump out a sniper. If you see support vet, get a second sniper and proceed to insta-kill his flamer squads. Rinse/repeat. If he then follows up with MG spam then you already have the counter (snipers) just ready and waiting.

Against any kind of extended T1 - T3 you have two choices.

a) M8. Benefits are that if it arrives before he gets his T3 up, and he is indeed going for T3, you can end the game almost immediately. On maps like Semois and Angoville it's a great harrasment tool that can allow you to quite easily secure at least half the map. The downside of the quick M8 is that most people are reckless and either try and baserush with it or drive over un-mine-swept territory and lose it to a subsequent faust.

b) Sniper. My preferred option, as you have more control over the outcome. You need to be smart about picking your targets (target the gunners of the MG while coinciding it with a flank- the delay as the gunner is replaced will allow you to do extra damage with your rifles and potentially steal it).

Whatever you do, just don't go for bars. Grenades can work but largely rely on your opponent to make mistakes, and is therefore not reliable. Depending on your skill level you might enjoy a high degree of success just by going 3 rifles into grenades then tossing them everywhere, but you will eventually hit a wall against players who can react effectively.

If you aren't able to gain a sizeable advantage early on and you face T3, ATG's will be needed sooner rather than later. Get used to packing them up and moving them all the time, and where possible don't allow them to uselessly fire on enemy infantry and give away their position.

If he's using pioneers as his primary fighting units, then they're going to be extremely vulnerable to snipers. As soon as you see a clear absence of T1, build a WSC (preferably after at least 2 rifles though as cappers and meat shields) and pump out a sniper. If you see support vet, get a second sniper and proceed to insta-kill his flamer squads. Rinse/repeat. If he then follows up with MG spam then you already have the counter (snipers) just ready and waiting.

Against any kind of extended T1 - T3 you have two choices.

a) M8. Benefits are that if it arrives before he gets his T3 up, and he is indeed going for T3, you can end the game almost immediately. On maps like Semois and Angoville it's a great harrasment tool that can allow you to quite easily secure at least half the map. The downside of the quick M8 is that most people are reckless and either try and baserush with it or drive over un-mine-swept territory and lose it to a subsequent faust.

b) Sniper. My preferred option, as you have more control over the outcome. You need to be smart about picking your targets (target the gunners of the MG while coinciding it with a flank- the delay as the gunner is replaced will allow you to do extra damage with your rifles and potentially steal it).

Whatever you do, just don't go for bars. Grenades can work but largely rely on your opponent to make mistakes, and is therefore not reliable. Depending on your skill level you might enjoy a high degree of success just by going 3 rifles into grenades then tossing them everywhere, but you will eventually hit a wall against players who can react effectively.

If you aren't able to gain a sizeable advantage early on and you face T3, ATG's will be needed sooner rather than later. Get used to packing them up and moving them all the time, and where possible don't allow them to uselessly fire on enemy infantry and give away their position.

Thank you Tommy! That is the kind of advice I can really use and practice.

from what Wehrman says T1-T3 is very hard to counter (I am sure his micro is much better than mine). I am a level 9 in multiplayer but so far only 5 in 1v1, though limited experience due to not wanting to wait the sometimes interminable time to get a match. Watching pro streams doesn't always help because success in cases like this usually mean you never see what Wehr was working up to.

Forget what I said. Go with Tommy : )

The reason I'm finding t1-t3 hard to counter is because I'm new to US play. Only have about 100 games but I'm doing ok, already lev 13ish.

I've always thought US should and did dictate the tech choices, but I'm slowly learning that you need to react to what wehr is doing as well. i'm blindly going bars or nades without reading the signs (that I should know so well since I primarily play Wehr).

I watched TFN expert insight with DevM and I think the strat he used in the game is probably the most dangerous if you can master it.

Fast M8, then sniper (while you build up fuel), to bars, maybe a SY upgrade in there as well.

It allows you to hold off a jump to t3. In the chance wehr goes vetted t2, you have sniper power. And eventually you get bars to help rifles vet up.

Probably an old question but I don't know the answer:

If they use vetted flamers into heavy MG42 (2-3), what is the US counter? 2-3 m8s? WSC? I can see a couple of snipers being very powerful but susceptible to mines and early Pumas or Ostwind.

Another strat I had trouble with was MG spam on langres (US in north position). he had 4 MGs and then went straight to Puma and StuG combo. I built a fairly quick m8 but it didn't seem to clear enough for my rifles to have an effect, and ran into the T3 fairly quickly.

Sorry, the replay is on another computer. My problem is I saw what he was doing but wasn't sure of the best counter. So far only suggestion I got was be patient, try to hold what you have, and build a couple of snipers.

The first and foremost counter (which people often forget to mention ^) is to be aggressive in the early game with your Rifles. MG spam need time to set up a wall, don't let them have that time. If you do it properly you can beat MG spam with just Rifles no need to race (or at least can hold them long enough) for Sniper or M8. If you fail to do that and lag far behind then even Sniper and M8 won't help you.

If you're new i suggest getting a Jeep as the first or second unit from the barrack to scout what your opponent is doing/building and where to flank. It's cheap and has low upkeep, you can still go 4 Rifles without much affecting your mp income.

Ab not good against t3 perse. I think rangers are better, plus they come equipped with zooks. So you put the muni to use in mines that you would use on RR. You really need AT gun, but rangers better than paratrooper as last resort, against T3. And really T4 is the counter to wehr t3.

I usually play as wehr, but started playing US lately. At my lev (about 13/14) I'm seeing a lot of t1-t3 play. Still trying to figure it out myself. If you don't have mines down and you're holding off with only Rangers or Paratrooper, and even 1 AT, you're done. It's very difficult to beat.

I usually don't play t1-t3 when playing as wehr, but I'm finding it really difficult to beat. As US, if you go Bars, you spent fuel before his tech choice. If you go M8, it'll help, but once stugs and storm roll out out, you're now out teched. In the latter, your M8 can hold off the puma/s, and then you can go AB, para and At guns (in preparation for Stugs), backed up by snipers. But if you go bars first and don't hold him off fuel, you're in trouble. Mine spam to hold off until you can get T4

No i don't think US T4 is the counter to Wehr T3. With T4 you can hold off his T3 for sometimes but when he has 3 Stugs and starts vetting them up then AT guns is a must, with M18/Sherman fall back to support role (they are quite good at that).

As US, proper counter to T3 (or any Asix Armor forces late game) should consist of combine arms with AT gun as stoping power. You can't get away without it against good opponent.

If you're still learning the mechanics of COH1, here are some quirks that apply here. More reasons to avoid paratroopers in this situation:
-Pumas can shoot them out of the sky while they are reinforcing.

-Puma "phase armor": You'll notice that sometimes shots will pass right through the model of the Puma without hitting. This is because Pumas don't have a hitbox. This means that if something fires at the Puma and rolls a "miss", the shot will miss no matter what. Other vehicles (StuGs, for example) have a hitbox so that even if a shot is rolled as a "miss" it can still hit, provided that the projectile is traveling in the right direction.
Every weapon has a "scatter" value that determines how far the projectile will stray from the target in the case of a miss. Paratrooper RRs have very low scatter, which means they often will hit the target (the hitbox) even in the case of a miss. This does not apply to Pumas, unfortunately.

-Flamethrowers are extra good against units with elite armor (eg Paratroopers), so that flamer pio death blob will be even more annoying.

No i don't think US T4 is the counter to Wehr T3. With T4 you can hold off his T3 for sometimes but when he has 3 Stugs and starts vetting them up then AT guns is a must, with M18/Sherman fall back to support role (they are quite good at that).

As US, proper counter to T3 (or any Asix Armor forces late game) should consist of combine arms with AT gun as stoping power. You can't get away without it against good opponent.

I'd definitely second the need for AT guns against stugs. They beat both Shermans and M10s head on, and vet 2 makes them great vs inf. Personally i find tank depot at it's most useful after an extended t3 vs t3 battle, as ultimately Wher hold the trump card due to the nebel's ability to nobble your at guns.

P.S. In my experience, a fast tech to Tank depot should go hand in hand with a strong early game, which has left you feeling confident that tanks + AWM/Field repairs will win you the game.

If you're still learning the mechanics of COH1, here are some quirks that apply here. More reasons to avoid paratroopers in this situation:
-Pumas can shoot them out of the sky while they are reinforcing.

-Puma "phase armor": You'll notice that sometimes shots will pass right through the model of the Puma without hitting. This is because Pumas don't have a hitbox. This means that if something fires at the Puma and rolls a "miss", the shot will miss no matter what. Other vehicles (StuGs, for example) have a hitbox so that even if a shot is rolled as a "miss" it can still hit, provided that the projectile is traveling in the right direction.
Every weapon has a "scatter" value that determines how far the projectile will stray from the target in the case of a miss. Paratrooper RRs have very low scatter, which means they often will hit the target (the hitbox) even in the case of a miss. This does not apply to Pumas, unfortunately.

-Flamethrowers are extra good against units with elite armor (eg Paratroopers), so that flamer pio death blob will be even more annoying.

Thanks for the help. Mostly I knew all of this (except the anti-AB puma thing). Even the Puma phase thing.

I knew that 57mm are my main anti-armor. I didn't know they kill inf (higher accuracy?) at vet 2, but it is really hard to keep AT's alive if Wehr really wants them dead. I have learned in multi-player to keep them repositioning, though success is entirely up to my micro skills and the intensity of the battle at the time (though getting better). I try to back them up with something, be it mg, a rifle, m8, whatever I have handy. The best I think is a HT (can reinforce the AT), with a quad preferably.

The item I most miss is an effective Quad. 4x.50 cal out to rip light armor to pieces and present a really good Anti-inf unit. Instead it is a a glass water pistol that can't suppress. Is it any good against PE armor?

The item I most miss is an effective Quad. 4x.50 cal out to rip light armor to pieces and present a really good Anti-inf unit. Instead it is a a glass water pistol that can't suppress. Is it any good against PE armor?

It rips all PE light vehicles to shreds and is good at suppressing panzergrenadiers. That said, for US v. PE I almost always use Aimstrong's anti-PE strategy. Inverse made a good video explaining the strategy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSz5-ym_Qg4
If you want to talk US v. PE, however, you should probably start another thread so this one doesn't go crazily off-topic.

If you play as US don't hesitate to spam AT gun if the Wehr player go for heavily armor play. Remember to protect them and keep repositioning and repairing them. Your opponent can kill one or two but will suffer greatly while doing so and one AT gun lost won't hurt you.

Also don't forget the Supply Yard upgrades, get at least upgrade 1 after several T3 units so you can compete with Wehr or PE in the long run.

About the Quad Halftrack it's quite good against PE light armor. It can suppress too just much slower than MG. You can built one instead of M8 when play vs PE and that won't be a problem.

yes of course combined arms is the goal. But the t1-T3 strat usually means wehr going at least 2 pumas straight up. Stugs are crap at anti inf until you vet 2 them, so a good wehr player isn't going to waste his time with that to press the advantage if you went bars. So a quick t4 with m10s will ruin a puma party. Of course if you see multiple vetted stugs, you're going to need AT guns as a back tech.

A lot of wehr players go couple pumas backed up with a pak and shrecked grens (either t1-t2-t3 strat or with t2 as a back tech)and then just wait it out for KT or Tiger. So here you definitely need all 4 tiers.

Well my point is if you have the time and resources to get all 4 tiers that's good and all. But if not you can still frequently win late game as US without T4.

US T4 is not a must except maybe in some large maps such as Blowland.