Sick/bored of MG42 -.-

This is painful. Nullist doesn't understand because Nullist doesn't play the game. And Nullist especially doesn't play Soviets. It blows my mind that someone would be so argumentative and dense and of such strong opinions without any actual experience. Dunning-Kruger effect in effect...

Before going from 3 to 4 men we hardly saw german players make more than 1 mg. Because of this change we can see the metagame switch to german players making 2, sometimes even 3 mgs.

False.

Ost didn't field MGs back then because Maxims where unsuppressable and ended up assraping the MG42s completely. In the same patch that increased MG42 to 4 man, the Maxim got fixed.

Back before that, it was MAXIMS that got spammed.

You dont remember? Or just wherent there?

The survival increase was absolutely needed to retain even a semblance of asymmetric survival between the two HMGs.

The PROBLEM is that nothing else was done to reward flanking. It is being done NOW.

But the survival buff a no brainer. 1/2 survival was just flat wrong.
Obviously the Devs agree, since they are the ones that implemented it.

Ok I think I can agree with you here. =) I hope it is being done now at least!

However I think you are being somewhat counterproductive in these debates with the way you present and nitpick about details and leave the context for others to figure out.

People are assuming things because they are acting reflexively on the topic.

Ive never said HMGs dont need adjusting for better flanking.

I am saying the survival buff is NOT a problem.

This is painful. Nullist doesn't understand because Nullist doesn't play the game. And Nullist especially doesn't play Soviets. It blows my mind that someone would be so argumentative and dense and of such strong opinions without any actual experience. Dunning-Kruger effect in effect...

Blows my mind that you think I give a shit about your opinion on me, as you are to me some random nobody who likes to get personal instead of discussing the topic.

Hell, even in the thread I started to discuss, rationally and constructively SPECIFICALLY on HMGs, you where the only jackass who refused to follow the requested format though everyone else did.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/7356/the-hmg-thread

You can read mine and many others CONSTRUCTIVE perspectives on problems and suggested solutions there.

READ IT. And see if you can't, for once in your life, be as rational and reasonable.

People are assuming things because they are acting reflexively on the topic.

If you kept this in mind before posting I believe the boards would be cleaner to read with less pointless arguing. =) You can not change others to magically absorb your mindset

No more offtopic from me sorry

Blows my mind that you think I give a shit about your opinion on me, as you are to me some random nobody who likes to get personal instead of discussing the topic.

Hell, even in the thread I started to discuss, rationally, constructively and constructedly, SPECIFICALLY on HMGs, you where the only jackass who refused to follow the requested format though everyone else did.

You're pretty stupid nullist

You're pretty stupid nullist

If I'm stupid, you rate about as intelligent as a retarded raisin.

Heres the thread link:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/7356/the-hmg-thread

Go read it, and learn how adults and civilised people discuss.

If I'm stupid, you rate about as intelligent as a retarded raisin.

Heres the thread link:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/7356/the-hmg-thread

Go read it, and learn how adults and civilised people discuss.

"you rate about" wha? and I'm dumb.... and by the way Nullist I asked you a question earlier, what does unequivocably mean? http://www.coh2.org/topic/7676/sickbored-of-mg42-./post/72998

"you rate about" wha? and I'm dumb.... and by the way Nullist I asked you a question earlier, what does unequivocably mean? http://www.coh2.org/topic/7676/sickbored-of-mg42-./post/72998

It means "learn to fucking google and educate yourself instead of being a retarded raisin".

That's not what it means

Why are people even comparing the Maxim and MG42? The Maxim is horrible trash. Have you even played with the thing? Units can walk DIRECTLY INTO THE CONE and nade it from the front. MG42 is like a unit sent down from God compared to the Maxim.

That said, I don't care that the Maxim is trash. I can choose not to use that unit. I can't choose not to play against a 2 MG42 start each game.

3 man squad (and decrease HP), possibly tighten the cone, reduce LOS. If I walk a squad of conscripts on top of your MG from the side, it should have to retreat or die within a few seconds. Then we can talk. MGs weren't this cheesy in vCoH.

The survival buff from 3 to 4 men was mainly required to make the MG42 able to survive long enough to retreat from a sniper or M3 flamer car. Plus before that German support weapons were simply too vulnerable to mortars/tanks, but this affected mainly AT guns and mortars. In addition, the Soviet mortar firing speed was decreased, not sure if that one was really needed for the 82 mm mortar though.
Before that, on many maps the German early game consisted basically out of spamming Grenadiers because all other build orders were dominated by M3 flamers.

One thing that consistently happened before the buff to the crew size and some nerfs to the Maxim was that Maxims were way too strong (basically unkillable, unflankable, extreme DPS), I think this is what Nullist is refering to when talking about balance between the two HMG units. The Maxim is still a lot more survivable but I think the Maxim needs some minor buffs now and might be pushed into a completely different role, making comparisons between the two pretty hard because we do not know when/if/how those changes will come.

If you reduce it back to 3 men those other problems are likely to resurface. Thus, the changes to the MG42 need to be done on another front.
There have been many suggestions about that like increasing small arms damage across the board but that would also require buffing the armor of all other infantry (just nerfing the MG42 crew armor to increase small arms damage against it is impossible/doesn't do anything because penetration chances over 100% don't seem to do anything). Such a change would be interesting but would ultimately overthrow balance across the whole board, so this will never happen.
One thing that was done was the fix to bonus accuracy and the point blank mechanics but that only improves Vet 2 flanking performance vs. everything and the problem seems to exist mainly in the early game.

But ultimatelly, what Nullist is trying to tell you is that just removing the fourth man from the squad will have pretty severe effects and most likely just break the unit again. I think he made a good effort on that HMG thread he made but even that one got derailed.
I think some people like arguing and derailing threads just for the sake of it. And this includes "both sides" <- There never should be a "side" you take when talking balance.

I think the meta will shift again but they also have to be careful not to shift it into just another undesirable state leading to stale gameplay.
M3 spam, Grenadier spam, HMG42 spam... none of this makes for good matches.

loads more people unlocked the suppression bulletin as well as you need level 63 iirc, that thing is a real big piece of shit.

loads more people unlocked the suppression bulletin as well as you need level 63 iirc, that thing is a real big piece of shit.

Yes, but bulletins were a bad idea from the beginning. I hope they continue to be banned in tournaments.

False.

Ost didn't field MGs back then because Maxims where unsuppressable and ended up assraping the MG42s completely. In the same patch that increased MG42 to 4 man, the Maxim got fixed.

Back before that, it was MAXIMS that got spammed.

You dont remember? Or just wherent there?

You're pretty stupid nullist

Thanks, rofltehcat.
You pretty much summed up my position, better than I apparently had.

I'd be very surprised to see MG42s return to 3man, unless Maxims are dropped to 4.

The setuptime cant be increased on MG42s. It would just become impractical to wait that long.
The arc can feasibly be decreased, but frankly, so what given that Maxim can turn faster and basically have the same net arc (albeit requiring more micro).
As to suppression rate, the suppression is too damn high.
Nerfing that would need to be done carefully though, or Oorah will negate MG42s.

The Bulletin is OP without a doubt. Changing it to a setup-time decrease for example (in conjunction with core HMG changes) would do it.

Personally I think a minimum range would solve the problem, meaning a flanked HMG cant simply just resetup and resume firing, but has to keep running until its out of the minimum range, meaning its not doing jack shit except getting shot in the ass.

Nobody seems to appreciate the genius of that suggestion though...

Thanks, rofltehcat.

Personally I think a minimum range would solve the problem, meaning a flanked HMG cant simply just resetup and resume firing, but has to keep running until its out of the minimum range, meaning its not doing jack shit except getting shot in the ass.

Nobody seems to appreciate the genius of that suggestion though...

Your suggestion is not bad but it would not eliminate cases such as the one StehennJF posted where he chased an mg42 through the whole map and in the the mg still had plenty of health left. Chasing a maxim surely would yield even less results.

Chasing a maxim surely would yield even less results.

Yields the HMG doing zero dmg and being unable to re-setup and resume firing in your face, possibly nicking a single model and suppressing the whole unit, which is the problem with especially MG42s.

They just stay where they are and turn while eating it, till they can get a suppressing round off or help arrives.

With a minimum range, they cant.

As long as you keep chasing, they will have to keep running.

Possibly in conjunction with MG42 reduction to 3man and Maxim reduction to 4man, though that opens up an old can of worms in relation to a weaponised support team being pretty easy pickings for explosive ordnance.

The HMGs don't have to be reinvented by things like minimum range etc.
Just use what has proven to work in CoH1.
HMGs should not be able to look as far as they can shoot. They are support weapons and thus should need a spotter (like in CoH1). And the supression is way too high right now for the MG42 with bulletin.

Especially the reduced line of sight would support flanking, casue the MG could not supress chasing units on max range anymore by itself. Flanking squads can come closer, increasing its change to get into grenade range and increasing the chance for at least one of two squads being able to get behind the MG. Right now you can comfortably supress one squad change target and also supress the second one.