@Ekko Tek: Yes, I noticed the j/k. But since it was followed up with agreeing with Stoffa that KV8 is indeed OP and should be nerfed, whats the problem with nerfing it then.
You agree it should be nerfed, and so does he, and the others I quoted.
I can provide even more quotes from this thread where people who rage AGAINST it being nerfed, provenly and clearly state that it is, indeed OP.
Why all the resistance and anger then.
Everyone agrees it is OP, and should be nerfed.
@UGBEAR: Ashamed of playing the faction I prefer to play? Nope.
OT: Everyone agrees KV8 is OP and should be nerfed.
/Thread.
I can provide even more quotes from this thread where people who rage AGAINST it being nerfed, provenly and clearly state that it is, indeed OP.
You can provide plenty of evidence, no doubt. I am first one who is saying that KV8 is OP'd in vacuum situations, you and plenty others are describing. Do I agree it needs nerf? No, because it doesn't effect end result of the game. You have just about same or more chance of losing with KV8 as achieving win....
You have trouble comprehending that? Well, can't help you there
Its a good thing Devs wont give a goddam about crap like this.
Devs actually made KV8 to be 'OP' deliberately, a hard counter to infantry and "high risk / high gain unit'
You think devs will read your vacuum argument on how KV8 is OP'd vs infantry and support weapons and then ignore the rest of game design and how it effects on balance of the game. Just because it annoys you and you don't like dealing with it?
Well keep dreaming
P.S. if weighing up cons and prons of unit, considering its impact on the game in large, while acknowledging its superiority in situations that are presented in vacuum is considered raging, well I am glad to be ragging lunatic
The KV-8 doesn't affect the end result as much at the moment because German early game is so good and that the early game has a larger ripple effect than late game (obviously). When the early game meta is balanced, there will be no ripple effect from easy German early game, meaning the KV-8 will affect the end result of the game fairly consistently.
By the way, the KV-8 is not expensive. 135 fuel is only 20 more than a Panzer IV and it actually costs less if you include the teching cost. Assuming a state in the game where both sides have held their own fuel equally up to that point, you bet it's going to roll over everything.
You can't say that nothing in the Soviet arsenal is OP because the German player is always ahead due to MG spam because:
1) It's one specific tactic (albeit the most popular one in current meta)
2) It's getting fixed in the next patch
Let's take that into consideration first and continue this discussion in a more logical and constructive manner.
@UGBEAR and Nullist: Stop derailing the thread further with your directed personal attacks at each other - doesn't matter who started it. Frankly, it's just making Relic devs want to read the discussion less as half of the posts don't contain anything constructive (especially UGBEAR, stop quoting the same quote every fucking post; what are you, five years old?).
The KV-8 doesn't affect the end result as much at the moment because German early game is so good and that the early game has a larger ripple effect than late game (obviously). When the early game meta is balanced, there will be no ripple effect from easy German early game, meaning the KV-8 will affect the end result of the game fairly consistently.
If they fix early game, then maybe it will make KV8 commander OP ( and I mean commander, not only KV8). But problem of dealing with German T2 while trying to pull out quick KV8 will remain.
If it becomes OP commander and problematic to win vs, I will be first one to join in because I play both German and Soviet
By the way, the KV-8 is not expensive. 135 fuel is only 20 more than a Panzer IV and it actually costs less if you include the teching cost. Assuming a state in the game where both sides have held their own fuel equally up to that point, you bet it's going to roll over everything.
It is expensive in the way that if you go for KV8, you better achieve complete control of the map and almost wipe out your enemy, because spending 135 fuel on KV8, means you are 135 fuel short of teching to SU85. If your opponent pulls out Piv its game over
I am first one who is saying that KV8 is OP'd in vacuum situations, you and plenty others are describing.
The irony here, it is infact you who are arguing from a vacuum position, whereas myself and others are arguing from a contextual, universal "atmosphere" (ie: the overall state of the game).
You agree that KV8 damage is OP, but then try to state that that OPness is ok, because of vacuumed situation/scenario/thing x, y or z. OPness is NEVER ok, no matter what vacuumed and isolated criteria you try to use to justify it. Surely you can see that.
I will demonstrate.
Vacuum 1: The Doctrine.
- You argue KV8s flame dmg is ok, even though you admit its OP, by basing it on the "vacuum" of the doctrine itself being otherwise shit. You are isolating the doctrine deom the rest of the game, thereby creating a vacuum.
Vacuum 2: Hypothetical scenarios.
- You contrive long extended scenarios that superficially "seem" to support your position, that even though you agree KV8 dmg is OP, you still think its ok, because of these hypothetical, drawn out and theoretical scenarios. This creates a superifical vacuum, where you disregard any number of other scenarios, just because they are not conducive to your own position.
Vacuum 3: OP+OP=Balance
- You try to argue that its OPness, which you admit, is somehow justified because some other unit in the game is also OP. Trying to present it as if they somehow justify each others OPness. This is a ridiculous position to take in regards to universal balance, and creates an artifical vacuumed comparison that undermines the very concept of balance. Two OP units, do not justify each other, or equal balance. They are both OP, regardless, and both need adjusting, regardless.
Myself and others are arguing from a universal and comprehensive balance perspective.
From the basis of the overall "atmosphere" (ie: lack of specific and narrow vacuumed limitations which you yourself present) of the game as a whole.
We argue KV8 dmg is OP. You agree that it is OP. However we argue it is OP in the grand scheme when compared ro flame dmg in the overall context of the game. You are the one creating vacuumed explanations and exceptions where you think its OPness is justified. Its a logical fallacy though. You are the one presenting isolated, constrained scenarios and criteria, vacuumed. We are presenting it from the game status overall.
Devs actually made KV8 to be 'OP' deliberately, a hard counter to infantry and "high risk / high gain unit'
This is pure speculation on your part. You are claiming to represent the Devs intent, as your own, without anything to support or prove that it is so. Unless you have something to back this up with, this is completely invalid.
You are not a Dev. Unless you have a source from which you can concretely confirm this, you have no place or right to pretend younspeak with the Devs authority supporting your position.
There is speculation which is far more warranted, that the KV8s stats are still mistakenly at Campaign levels.
There is a precedent for thismhaving happened before, with FHT. Infact the proportion that the FHT nerf took, supports this. It had levels, before, the same as Campaign. KV8, notably, still has Campaign level flame dmf. See the connection?
You think devs will read your vacuum argument on how KV8 is OP'd vs infantry and support weapons and then ignore the rest of game design and how it effects on balance of the game. Just because it annoys you and you don't like dealing with it?
As I demonstrated above, it is infact you who are arguing from vacuum positions. Using isolated criteria to support your contradictory position, that even though you agree KV8 dmg is OP, you claim that OPness as ok, because in your vacuumed scenarios and perspectives, it is somehow "justified" its OPness, without considerinf the wider perspective of game balance.
I dont argue for balance because something "annoys me". My personal feels of "annoyance" have nothing to do with balance. You, however, seem to feel that you "feeling annoyed" by something, is a basis and justification for balancing. Else why would you bring it up. Its obvious to anyone who tries atleast to improfe the games balance, for everyone, that "feels of annoyance" are not a valid basis for argument.
The KV8s flame dmg especially on retreating units, is completely out of proportion to anything else in the game, especially and specifically related to other flame weapons. This is an argument based on the overall state of the game, rather than your position that "its OPness is justified because of vacuum scenario 1, 2 and x".
In every scenario, regardless of doctrines, its flame dmg (especially on retreat), is completely out of proportion to anything else in the game. That is considering and balancing it in the overall context of the game, rsther than vacuumed and limited scenarios that you base your contradictory position that it is somehow simultsneously OP but ok because of specific criteria X or Y.
The doctrines balance is another matter entirely.
KV8s timing, cost etc are also dompletely different matters entirely.
The flame dmg however, is froma universal perspective, completely out of proportion in the multiplayer stat balance context.
TLDR: Its a logical fallacy to simultaneously maintain that KV8 dmg is OP, and yet somehow at the same time ok, because of limited vacuumed scenarios or perspectives x, y or z.
Its either OP, or it isnt.
Maintaining both at the same time is an untenable logical paradox.
Youve been trying to reconcile this, by claiming its OP, overall, but not OP, because of scenarios x, y or z.
That, exactly, is arguing from vacuumed and limited perspectives. Not a universal one.
Finally, some video evidence of this OPness in action provided by ImperialDane and Cyridius:
Watch from 41:30.
I challenge anyone to claim that is "ok".
Nullist I really don't understand why you're discussing balance of coh2 in such an aggressive way while you actually played the game for 1.3 hours in the last 2 weeks, and played a total of only 75 games.
If I were you I'd get a little less worked up on the forums and actually go and enjoy the game more. Then, with some more experience, come back to the boards so you can actually post from an understanding of the game instead of simply theorycrafting.
Im busy doing other shit during which I cant play.
The KV8 flame dmg situation is not "theorycrafting".
The replay above evidences this.
No extent of personal disparagment or focus on your part towards me personally changes that.
As to getting worked up, if you look back to your initial post to me, its you who got bent out of shape, after which an extended campaign to investigate my stats, as if again, my stats reflected on game balance at all.
Ad hominem, dude.
Discussion is on KV8, not me personally.
Ill get around to playing more eventually, so your "advise" is received.
My advice to you, is focus on the topic and the arguments, not on the individual.
From my perspective, I dont give a shit who you are, how many hours youve played, or what your favorite color is.
Ill take your arguments on their own face value.
Finally, some video evidence of this OPness in action provided by ImperialDane and Cyridius:
Watch from 41:30.
I challenge anyone to claim that is "ok".
man, if you get over couple of difference in opinion and we continue with normal civil discussion. You would realize that we pretty much have similar desire and view on the damn issue.
You think KV8 is OP vs infantry
I think KV8 is OP vs infantry
You think KV8 should be nerfed
I have no problem with KV8 being nerfed as long as commander doesn't become useless
You think units shouldn't be instantly fried by KV8 without chance to retreat
I think units shouldn't be instantly fried.......
You passionately argue that that is the case most of the time
I resolutely claim that that never happens to me
You passionately disprove that it is acceptable to have such unit in the game
It annoys me, but I don't really care that much as long as I have reasonable chance of wining vs unit like that.
As far as video goes, yep he got fried. Tho he run straight into that KV8, he could have kissed it before retreating. Thats not exactly KV8 chasing him down the map and frying his ass on the run, still annoying tho....
semi-related to video: I lost 4 squads (each vet 2-3) of rifle guards and SU85 in an instant.
Moving up the road, i spotted weapon lying on the ground and just sent blob to pick it up.
At the same moment they got together around dropped weapon to pick it up i've seen brumbar fire of one round from the edge of my view, instantly wiping out all 4 squads and at the same time 2 PG's squads appeared from camo ambush and wasted my SU85 before I managed to even click my mouse.
I lost game I was dominating in an instant. Pissed me of immensely, but I typed gg. Got reply lol, bad luck GG
Im busy doing other shit during which I cant play.
Yea like writing books on this thread, you've literally put in hours into this thread, is that what you call doing shit? I call that bullshitting but that's just me, as I write this from my office while getting paid $40 an hour..... But even then I wouldn't write 1/3rd of what you've put into this....
The irony here, it is infact you who are arguing from a vacuum position, whereas myself and others are arguing from a contextual, universal "atmosphere" (ie: the overall state of the game).
You agree that KV8 damage is OP, but then try to state that that OPness is ok, because of vacuumed situation/scenario/thing x, y or z. OPness is NEVER ok, no matter what vacuumed and isolated criteria you try to use to justify it. Surely you can see that.
I will demonstrate.
Vacuum 1: The Doctrine.
- You argue KV8s flame dmg is ok, even though you admit its OP, by basing it on the "vacuum" of the doctrine itself being otherwise shit. You are isolating the doctrine deom the rest of the game, thereby creating a vacuum.
Vacuum 2: Hypothetical scenarios.
- You contrive long extended scenarios that superficially "seem" to support your position, that even though you agree KV8 dmg is OP, you still think its ok, because of these hypothetical, drawn out and theoretical scenarios. This creates a superifical vacuum, where you disregard any number of other scenarios, just because they are not conducive to your own position.
Vacuum 3: OP+OP=Balance
- You try to argue that its OPness, which you admit, is somehow justified because some other unit in the game is also OP. Trying to present it as if they somehow justify each others OPness. This is a ridiculous position to take in regards to universal balance, and creates an artifical vacuumed comparison that undermines the very concept of balance. Two OP units, do not justify each other, or equal balance. They are both OP, regardless, and both need adjusting, regardless.
Myself and others are arguing from a universal and comprehensive balance perspective.
From the basis of the overall "atmosphere" (ie: lack of specific and narrow vacuumed limitations which you yourself present) of the game as a whole.
We argue KV8 dmg is OP. You agree that it is OP. However we argue it is OP in the grand scheme when compared ro flame dmg in the overall context of the game. You are the one creating vacuumed explanations and exceptions where you think its OPness is justified. Its a logical fallacy though. You are the one presenting isolated, constrained scenarios and criteria, vacuumed. We are presenting it from the game status overall.
This is pure speculation on your part. You are claiming to represent the Devs intent, as your own, without anything to support or prove that it is so. Unless you have something to back this up with, this is completely invalid.
You are not a Dev. Unless you have a source from which you can concretely confirm this, you have no place or right to pretend younspeak with the Devs authority supporting your position.
There is speculation which is far more warranted, that the KV8s stats are still mistakenly at Campaign levels.
There is a precedent for thismhaving happened before, with FHT. Infact the proportion that the FHT nerf took, supports this. It had levels, before, the same as Campaign. KV8, notably, still has Campaign level flame dmf. See the connection?
As I demonstrated above, it is infact you who are arguing from vacuum positions. Using isolated criteria to support your contradictory position, that even though you agree KV8 dmg is OP, you claim that OPness as ok, because in your vacuumed scenarios and perspectives, it is somehow "justified" its OPness, without considerinf the wider perspective of game balance.
I dont argue for balance because something "annoys me". My personal feels of "annoyance" have nothing to do with balance. You, however, seem to feel that you "feeling annoyed" by something, is a basis and justification for balancing. Else why would you bring it up. Its obvious to anyone who tries atleast to improfe the games balance, for everyone, that "feels of annoyance" are not a valid basis for argument.
The KV8s flame dmg especially on retreating units, is completely out of proportion to anything else in the game, especially and specifically related to other flame weapons. This is an argument based on the overall state of the game, rather than your position that "its OPness is justified because of vacuum scenario 1, 2 and x".
In every scenario, regardless of doctrines, its flame dmg (especially on retreat), is completely out of proportion to anything else in the game. That is considering and balancing it in the overall context of the game, rsther than vacuumed and limited scenarios that you base your contradictory position that it is somehow simultsneously OP but ok because of specific criteria X or Y.
The doctrines balance is another matter entirely.
KV8s timing, cost etc are also dompletely different matters entirely.
The flame dmg however, is froma universal perspective, completely out of proportion in the multiplayer stat balance context.
TLDR: Its a logical fallacy to simultaneously maintain that KV8 dmg is OP, and yet somehow at the same time ok, because of limited vacuumed scenarios or perspectives x, y or z.
Its either OP, or it isnt.
Maintaining both at the same time is an untenable logical paradox.
Youve been trying to reconcile this, by claiming its OP, overall, but not OP, because of scenarios x, y or z.
That, exactly, is arguing from vacuumed and limited perspectives. Not a universal one.
Finally, some video evidence of this OPness in action provided by ImperialDane and Cyridius:
Watch from 41:30.
I challenge anyone to claim that is "ok".
The Abridged Version Please? I can see just how busy you are doing shit.... LoL....
@Babaroga: Nobody wants the Doctrine, or the KV8, to be useless. Certainly not me.
As to you not having seen KV8s retreat rapeage, now you have.
The kind of dmg reduction myself and others envision, is roughly equivalent to what was done to the FHT, in proportion. Its not nearly so dramatic or Doctrine breaking as you seem to fear. Just "normalising" it to the games other flame effects (it would still be the best of them).
Doctrines havent yet had their turn under the microscope for patching.
Im sure any shortcoming in KV8 doctrine will be addressed in other ways.
The doctrine shouldnt "rely" on such OP levels of AI anyways, to be valid.
@NoobElite: Doesnt take me hours at all. Nowhere near that.
Maybe it takes you an hour to write your shitty little personal barbs though.
I pity the fool who hired someone like you, only to waste $40/h on you wasting it here.
As to what Im busy doing, that is none of your fucking business, nor relevant to the topic in the least.
But yeah, keep on with the ad hominem, cos you got nothing on the actual topic.
@Babaroga: Nobody wants the Doctrine, or the KV8, to be useless. Certainly not me.
As to you not having seen KV8s retreat rapeage, now you have.
The kind of dmg reduction myself and others envision, is roughly equivalent to what was done to the FHT, in proportion. Its not nearly so dramatic or Doctrine breaking as you seem to fear. Just "normalising" it to the games other flame effects (it would still be the best of them).
Doctrines havent yet had their turn under the microscope for patching.
Im sure any shortcoming in KV8 doctrine will be addressed in other ways.
The doctrine shouldnt "rely" on such OP levels of AI anyways, to be valid.
@NoobElite: Doesnt take me hours at all. Nowhere near that.
Maybe it takes you an hour to write your shitty little personal barbs though.
I pity the fool who hired someone like you, only to waste $40/h on you wasting it here.
As to what Im busy doing, that is none of your fucking business, nor relevant to the topic in the least.
But yeah, keep on with the ad hominem, cos you got nothing on the actual topic.
Between you typing crap, and reading through it, and then constantly checking it = hours... Put it this way no one would doubt me if I said you spent more time in here then actually playing the game. I pity the fool who gave birth to you.
As far as video goes, yep he got fried. Tho he run straight into that KV8, he could have kissed it before retreating. Thats not exactly KV8 chasing him down the map and frying his ass on the run, still annoying tho....
That is so much bullshit it is unbelievable.
Having been the person who actually played that game and remembered how it went, knowing how hilariously OP the KV-8 was I retreated the instant it appeared in my LoS.
Retreating before it even fired a shot(Or flame, w/e), and dying anyway? Yeah, that's really fucking stupid no matter how close I was.
Having been someone who has both used the KV-8 and been on the receiving end, it's simplistically easy to chase a unit down across the map and kill it. It's not like Germans have a vehicle snare that can stop me.
Get it out onto the field, attack-move to base, profit. Kill his entire army or back-tech him by killing his vehicle production buildings. Easy money.
Im busy doing other shit during which I cant play.
The KV8 flame dmg situation is not "theorycrafting".
The replay above evidences this.
No extent of personal disparagment or focus on your part towards me personally changes that.
As to getting worked up, if you look back to your initial post to me, its you who got bent out of shape, after which an extended campaign to investigate my stats, as if again, my stats reflected on game balance at all.
Ad hominem, dude.
Discussion is on KV8, not me personally.
Ill get around to playing more eventually, so your "advise" is received.
My advice to you, is focus on the topic and the arguments, not on the individual.
From my perspective, I dont give a shit who you are, how many hours youve played, or what your favorite color is.
Ill take your arguments on their own face value.
Yeah, making 1000+ post on the forum, play the game less than 1.3 hours during last 2 weeks, I see what shit you are busy doing
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