The HMG Thread:

Abdul, please edit your post to follow the instructions for this thread, as everyone else has.
They are written in the first post.

Abdul, please edit your post to follow the instructions for this thread, as everyone else has.
They are written in the first post.

what are u talking about? look first post below:

1. PROBLEMS:

A) MG42 soldiers take too long to flank/force retreat with conscripts

B) Unlike grande in COH Molotov is not consistent in killing them/forcing retreat

C) Firing range/arch is massive

D) suppression is too effective/fast against everything including units in green cover



2. SOLUTIONS:

A) make small arms fire more effective against them, especially in close range

and/or

B) Make Molotov more effective

C) Reduce firing range a little

D) Adjust suppression so at minimum suppression/pinning is not so instant and factor in cover

E) Maybe consider reintroducing the Fire Up! feature from COH1 and provide it to shock troops



3. Germans are supposed to be played defensively until later in game, but with the Grens, PG, Scout car, and especially the MG42 they are dominating the game so early.

1). What I perceive as the problems, and why.

I think the problem is mostly one of durability and their effectiveness unsupported. Their supression, damage and arc would be fine if you could just kill the damn things by flanking. Support weapons should be support, and work well in combined arms setups, not run around alone. They're also really good in buildings due to the super-effective cover that buildings provide.




2). What I perceive as specific solutions to the problems, and why.

The major issue is the weak small arms damage, you simply can't kill an MG by flanking in a reasonable timeframe, they can just walk away, or turn around and kill you. So do something about the time-to-kill from basic infantry. This could be by buffing infantry damage or lowering the durability. I suppose what I'm really missing is stronger soft-counters (by way of positioning) in this game.

Lower building cover effectiveness, this would be better for the game overall, including the MG's.

Lower the sight range of MGs, if they had much worse sight range they would be of less use running around alone, attack-moving around would be more dangerous if you would be almost inside molotov range when you see the enemy. This would force combined arms which is a good thing (tm) in my book.

3). Free commentary/responses to others.

what are u talking about? look first post below:

Sorry! I missed it by accident. Mea culpa.

Hi guys long time reader first time poster here! In fact the hmg is the only reason I am making an account. As we know its ridiculous I would go on as I literally just lost 3 games in a row because of it but hey.

1.

Instant suppression before you can even see its there so not even like your running into it, infact the arc is so wide your like 'there is no way this way will be blocked' o wait it was, by a machine gun facing almost 90 degrees to my line of movement. O wait it also suppressed my backup squad that is 180 degrees around from my other one at the same time.

Cant attack or move when pinned basically no choice but to retreat which destroys your early game control.

MG + the right building = insta op unit no micro required even wider arc basically 360 in some cases.

Soviets have no counter without building a new building for snipers/clown cars which both now get raped by the 222.

2.

Flanking as noted.

Make them so they have to be positioned in a building like on open ground not just fire all directions no micro needed.

Decrease sight/ range so you can actually see them before you are insta pinned or reduce suppression so you at least have a chance to get away. An mg should control part of the map and punish you for going that way, not insta retreat everything before you can even know its there.

Make it so it cant as easily just pin 3 separate squads attacking it like it has to aim at each one or something.

3. Agree with others the whole soviets get more units at start/play aggressive just doesn't work when there all running back to base.

Also the new map with the island in the center and the bridges, my god an mg on each one makes it pretty much gg at the moment. By the time you can counter them the German player already owns most the map.

MG + the right building = insta op unit no micro required even wider arc basically 360 in some cases.

Soviets have no counter without building a new building for snipers/clown cars which both now get raped by the 222.

2.
Make them so they have to be positioned in a building like on open ground not just fire all directions no micro needed.

It is already this way. If you click on the MG Squad in the House you can see the arc. If it wants to shoot out of another widow it has to repdeploy.

Actually I think you should be able to tell your MG in the House in which direction it should look.

1. Everything aside, when my soviet troops get suppressed at the edge of the arc of a MG 42, the troops go prone and crawl towards every which way, especially towards the centre of the arc. This is extremely annoying and it means that the troops eventually get pinned just because one out of the six guys decides to be stupid.

2. Make squads who get suppressed under HMG fires crawl AWAY from the cone of fire. Of course if the squad is in the middle of the cone, it should get pinned eventually, but if you are caught at the very edge, it should be able to get un-suppressed slowly but surely.

3. I heard a Relic developer say that HMG are supposed to be used in conjunction with other units for maximum efficiency (from one of TFN videos)

I think maxim actually works this way. I find it very useful when I am already engaged in a battle and I use it as an extra damage dealer from the back.... and useless when its on its own unless there is a narrow choke point.

But with MG 42, sure it is technically more efficient when used in conjunction but even when it is alone, its so efficient that its basically Rambo in four men's body...

the radio it covers. is too big. it should be 2/3 of what is actually is.

A followup point i forgot. Scouting is difficult in COH2.

In COH1 you had a fixed 360 sight range going thru everything, hence you could scout by approaching via shot-blocking terrain, going into buildings also gave you a larger spotting range.

And of course you had the bike and the jeep who both had massive sight ranges.

Due to truesight you don't have this option in COH2, the only way to know where the MG is is moving to contact and letting a squad get shot up, so it's actually more difficult to plan your flanks who are weaker in the first place.

If the MGs had a worse sight range on their own or there was another unit in T1 that had a longer sight range (think bike/jeep) this would be less of a problem I think.

I realize you have better scouting options later on but they come too late to really matter in the basic infantry & MG phase that comes early.

the radio it covers. is too big. it should be 2/3 of what is actually is.

+1

Having played a game or two on the new Semois... reasonably continuous green cover does actually seem to make a really tangible difference, at least against bulletinless MG-42s... that said, there isn't much on the new maps that really works as such.

Also, in a game on Semois, I also had to throw three separate molotovs into a smallish house to actually kill an MG (without the Ostheer player moving it at all)... now, that seems to be much of the problem with MGs in houses... they're hard to approach, grant a lot of area control and bonus LOS, and take both ages and a reasonable amount of munitions to kill even if the opponent plays as badly as they possibly can.

1. MG42 suppression rate is too immediate vs its very long de/setup. Maxims are too survivable (through Merge and 6man) and Sov overall weapon capture capacity.

2. Reduce suppression rate, which indirectly translates into a stronger DPS burst, which is still arguably as effective vs numerically superior Sov units. MG42 seems to have a higher DPS stat nominally anyways, so that may not even need adjusting. Also a small setup time reduction to account for Oorah. I think the arc is fine as long as suppression is reduced and setup reduced, as an offset for 3/4 survival.

Result being an MG42 that doesnt insta suppress, does more actual burst DPS (to keep it cost efficient vs 6man assaults), can de/setup faster to escape Oorah (which needs to be remembered), and has a wider arc to maintain asymmetric balance laterally against the more survivable Maxim.

Only problem is a lower suppression rate may result in Cons being able to frontally Oorah charge it and throw Molotov. But this is arguably balanced considering RGs capacity to damage Maxims at range and outside a smaller arc. The setup time reduction is therefore also necessary so the MG42 can reposition.

I think Maxim would also need a survival decrease in conjunction with this, by reducing squad size. It can still be pumped with Merge. Maxim suppression is underrated by the community. It "works" just fine.

3. I agree with the harmonisation suggestions. The current most outstanding "perks" of the two units are suppression rate, and setup time, respectively. I think by reducing suppression and setup on MG42, this harmonisation can be achieved while still retaining asymmetry.

The current most outstanding "perks" of the two units are suppression rate, and setup time, respectively. I think by reducing suppression and setup on MG42, this harmonisation can be achieved while still retaining asymmetry.

The arc of the MG42 is more outstanding than set up time on the Maxim - since with the arc, you don't need to bother re-setting up at all generally.

The arc of the MG42 is more outstanding than set up time on the Maxim - since with the arc, you don't need to bother re-setting up at all generally.

That's because you are not considering the systemic situation with Oorah and only 3/4 survival of its mirror.

If the suppression rate is reduced on MG42, it will need a shorter de/setup time in relation to its reduced ability to keep infantry at range and suppressed.

If you think arc is the "outstanding" issue, as you are clearly saying, then reduce the arc, but keep suppression as it is. Want to reconsider your position?

Also, please follow the instructions for FIRST POST, as outlined at the beginning of the thread. Everyone else has.

1) As mentioned by a lot of people before, flanking is the main issue. When I'm playing as germans and a conscript comes up behind my MG, I shouldn't be thinking "Hm, can I undeploy and redeploy fast enough?"; I should be thinking "Oh shit, I need to press the retreat button right now!" Same thing with the Maxim; I shouldn't be able to use it as a damage soaker.

2) Increasing the small arms damage would help out a lot (and would also reward cover a lot more, but I digress) with the current MG-spam. Getting rid of the ridiculous +10% suppression bulletin would get rid of a lot of the complaints as well.

Side-note: There is somewhat of a consistency issue with the MGs. First, whenever you put an MG into a building, it always points in a random direction and there is no way for you to change this until an enemy target comes. Second, MGs seem to randomly reload a lot, even when they haven't shot at anyone yet (this happens particularly often when they garrison buildings). They also don't seem to reload clips when they are no longer in combat (I think this might apply to all units tbh). A simple solution to this would be to make the reload feature more consistent so the squad actually reloads when it is out of combat.

I am not sure if they designed the insta-pin to make up for these problems (I sure hope not), but if any suppression and/or damage nerfs are made to either MG, these issues should be looked at as well.

If you think arc is the "outstanding" issue, as you are clearly saying, then reduce the arc, but keep suppression as it is. Want to reconsider your position?

Cut the arc in half and keep the suppression. It's dang near 180 degrees right now, which is retarded.

Cut the arc in half and keep the suppression. It's dang near 180 degrees right now, which is retarded.

The arc in vCoH for the MG42 was 120 degrees. CoH2's is around 160 - half of that would be way too drastic. The suppression is alright if they change the +10% bulletin. Relic is aware of the issue so we'll likely see some kind of change in the next patch.

Ok, so half was an exaggeration. In my first post, I advocated equaling it to the Maxim.

Ok, so half was an exaggeration. In my first post, I advocated equaling it to the Maxim.

It should be wider than the Maxim - because of Oorah and 4 men vs. 6 survivability. I don't much care about arguing the specifics on what precisely to change - Relic will fix something to somehow decrease a little its survivability when flanked.

It should be wider than the Maxim - because of Oorah and 4 men vs. 6 survivability. I don't much care about arguing the specifics on what precisely to change - Relic will fix something to somehow decrease a little its survivability when flanked.

no it shouldn't...and the 4 men vs 6 men survivability is fake...Maxims get chewed up quite easy
Oh and let's not forget the sniper range of the MG 42