soviet early game solutions

@The_Courier:

1) What exactly are you specifically suggesting should be changed on MG42?

2) And why do people keep bringing up explicitly MG42 survival, completely disregsrding that it is akready at 3/4 of Maxim survival? Do you think a MG42 at 1/2 survival of Maxim is realistic or conducive to balance?

I understand that people feel they have claims on this issue, but nobody is giving any concrete specific solution suggestions. Nor do I see anyone trying to reconcile those suggestions with the existing HMG situation on both factions.

Essentially, it amounts to whine with no solution presented, and no consideration of how those changes would match up asymmetrically to Maxim.

Ill run through the apparent asymmetry again.
= Ost Arc vs Sov Setup
= Ost Pin vs Sov DPS
= Sov 6 man vs Ost 4 man

If you have a differing perspective on that asymmetry, please explain it.
If you have a suggestion how to re-align that asymmetry for better balance, please elaborate on that and explain it.

Otherwise this leads nowhere.

NOTE:
- I think people are not understanding the difference between Suppressed and Pinned. The difference in pinning time between HMGs is not as dramatic as people are mkaing it out to be. 2 Bursts from Maxim WILL suppress infantry.
- As difficult as it is to maneuver around the MG42s arc, that is mitigated by two core factors:
-i) Oorah
-ii) The MG42 takes longer to reposition to reapply fire on a succesful flank.
Meaning that though the arc is narrower on a Maxim, and thus flanking action is more essily frontally achievable, it ALSO means the Maxim can proportionately quicker relocate to apply fire on that flank. This is asymmetric balance in practice.

The survival issue is, to me, a complete misnomer. MG42s already operate at 3/4 survival. Its a fallacy to claim that MG42s are too hard to damage with small arms, when infact Maxims are EVEN MORESO. Any claim that MG42s are too survivable, is also a claim that Maxims are EVEN MORE too survivable.

You seem to be ignoring the earlier post about damage modifiers, which seem like they would work nicely at making them more vulnerable to small arms.

You are also partially wrong about the MG42 having less Survivability. The MG42 teams have more armor then the maxim teams and take just as long to kill with normal fire. They are more suceptable to explosive damage and sniper fire, though the sniper fire is relative since the german sniper fires faster. Infact MG42 is better in the case of small arms since the gunner can take more fire without switching and when unpacked if the gun holder is killed you don't have to wait for another man to pick up the gun to move.

Also since the nerf I don't believe the difference in pack up time and damage are enough to make up for the difference in suppression and arc. There is absoloutly no situation where I would rather have a maxim then a MG42.

Someone in the thread earlier suggested

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sorry, accidentely hit the reply button before I was done. I finished it now.

Anything done to MG42s, needs to be mirrored by a nerf to Maxims as well.

It pretty much shows you don't play as soviets at all from that, but you know, I'd be fine with this despite being a primarily T2 soviet player.

The maxim is already useless. No matter how much you nerf it, it doesn't really matter because I make at most one per game and even that's only when I think I'm already almost sure to win and just want to get a couple of points on the maxim bulletins of which I have unlocked approximately none. So I'd love to see the MG42 get laden down with large nerfs in exchange for the maxim becoming even more useless.

Of course this is a completely ridiculous way of balancing things, but if that's what it takes for the MG42 to get nerfed, then I'm all in.

@Omega_Warrior: No, Ost Support Teams have 1 armor, just like Sov Support Teams. Your information is incorrect.

I have not ignored Devs direction of making HMGs less durable vs small arms. I support it. I was pointing out that since Ost Support operates ar 3/4 survival of Sov (to which you previously incorrectly though Ost Support has more armor), means such a loss in durability would also have to reflect on Maxims, or Ost would fall even further below the current 3/4 margin. See what I mean?

@Cuzz: Your comment is so blatanly loaded with direct statementd of not caring for balance, that there is no way to respond to it constructively.

If you dont care if MG42 gets nerfed into oblivion, based on your subjective inflexible attitude on Maxims, you disqualify yourself from objective balance discussion.

Please state, at the least, SPECIFICALLY what change you suggest for HMGs, along with supporting arguments.

@The_Courier:


Ill run through the apparent asymmetry again.
= Ost Arc vs Sov Setup
= Ost Pin vs Sov DPS
= Sov 6 man vs Ost 4 man

that's not a good asymmetric design because suppression is everything because once a squad is suppressed it mitigates damage from the suppressed infantry and the mg42 easily pins the troops. switching targets is faster than deploying your gun, and the guns arc is so huge, some places does not allow you to walk around its large arc of fire. also, maxims dps is not very high.

@The_Courier:

2 Bursts from Maxim WILL suppress infantry.

and one mg burst suppresses infantry and even though the soviets have oorah, the germans have rifle grenades.

@The_Courier:

-ii) The MG42 takes longer to reposition to reapply fire on a succesful flank.
Meaning that though the arc is narrower on a Maxim, and thus flanking action is more essily frontally achievable, it ALSO means the Maxim can proportionately quicker relocate to apply fire on that flank. This is asymmetric balance in practice.

The survival issue is, to me, a complete misnomer. MG42s already operate at 3/4 survival. Its a fallacy to claim that MG42s are too hard to damage with small arms, when infact Maxims are EVEN MORESO. Any claim that MG42s are too survivable, is also a claim that Maxims are EVEN MORE too survivable.

just think of this 2 infantry squads attack a maxim, one squad gets suppressed the other way just walk a few feet away from the arc of fire, which it could because the maxim doesn't suppress fast enough. even though the maxim can redeploy pretty quick, but not as quickly as a grenadier that could just walk around it.

another scenario, two infantry squads attack an mg42, one squad gets suppressed then pinned, the other squad walks all around the woods to avoid the arc of fire (some places do not allow for much flanking maneuver) and when the squad finally reaches the rear of the mg42, the mg 42 packs up, wait for oorah to finish redeploy and suppress the other squad, even when the other squad is flanking because if one infantry person gets left behind the whole squad gets pinned even when the rest are behind the mg.

@Jinsuen: Maxims can relocate when the first squad is suppressed. It will remain suppressed for quite some time.

RGs synch with Osts lack of Oorah, just as Molotovs link WITH Sovs Oorah.

I agree, that Sov micro in order to use Maxim is more micro intensive to prevent flanks than MG42s, but this is inherently because of Oorah.

The disparity in RGs ability to attack from outside the cone, is matched by Molotovs mandatory relocation.

Furthermore, Devs have indicated a direction of making HMGs more vulnerable to small arms. Nothing has been said about suppression.

i don't see why free moltovs and at nades will disrupt t2, and t3

it won't disrupt them but they'll hit field earlier. about 3-4 minutes earlier. you have to take that into consideration. i agree that soviet AV options are a problem in the early game, you have to make sure you get AT nade before the 5 min mark.

make MG2 3 man squad.

@Johnny: Then MG42 will have only 1/2 the survival of Maxim.

How the fuck does that make sense?

haha some people here never play soviet.

Biggest issue imo is MG42 1 burst mass supression along with the inefectiveness of green cover to counter that

@Cuzz: Your comment is so blatanly loaded with direct statementd of not caring for balance, that there is no way to respond to it constructively.

So are yours.

If you dont care if MG42 gets nerfed into oblivion, based on your subjective inflexible attitude on Maxims, you disqualify yourself from objective balance discussion.

Yes, I honestly wouldn't care if the MG42 got nerfed to oblivion right now with everything else remaining the same (or with the maxim getting a bunch of nerfs that affect nothing), because this would actually make for more interesting gameplay. Right now germans don't even need the overpowered MG42, yet them just having the option of making one forces the soviets to play along very specific paths.

The current MG42 is good in any sort of situation. The arc is stupidly huge, the swivel speed is fucking crazy (feels about double the vCoH speed), and the pin speed and the time squads spent pinned is something out of this world considering how little time it takes to get into that state, and it has enough view range to operate by itself. Coming at them from the front with any infantry just is never an option even if you use special abilities like smoke (contrast to the maxim that you can just bumrush straight down the cone if you like, though getting out of the cone is a more productive option and several orders of magnitude easier than with the mg42). On maps with cutoff points you're pretty much screwed as soviets if the germans can camp out at them, while you never have this problem against the soviets as the germans.

Even if you by some magic trick manage to get a conscript squad at full strength behind an MG42 without getting them pinned, the german player doesn't have to worry at all as long as he unpacks fast enough to get out of the initial molotov. They can at their leisure try to pack and realign several times, every time increasing the risk that a straggler from the conscript squad will be in the cone and make the entire squad instapin. At no point during this process is the MG actually at risk of dying because conscript dps is so low and mg survivability relatively high.

Looking at the dps google doc it actually looks like the MG42 even outdamages the maxim at <=33 range, you just don't see that because pin reduces damage taken and the maxim never manages to pin anything. So much for the myth of the magic maxim dps...

I guess if I was working on it, I'd start by removing all suppression bulletins from the game, dropping the swivel back to vCoH speeds, reducing the arc by 10 degrees and see how things go from there. These on top of whatever flanking bonuses they're implementing, that is.

@Cruzz: Read until "honestly wouldnt care." I "honestly dont care" what came after that.

@LeMarzin: Very good point about cover vs suppression. That is indeed a lateral approach that would be conducive to micro AND intelligent flanking. First, best point Ive heard, alongside my own suggestion of a minimum range to enforce usefulness of infantry that not only beats the arc, but also the setup time, to stand in the face of HMGs and FORCE them to move.

I agree that flanking mgs in general needs to be more rewarding, I also agree that the 10% instapin bulletin needs to be altered.

Keep in mind that the mg42 is the bread and butter of the german early game.
Applying the wrong tweaks could desastrously break early game balance.

As Nullist said, the maxim and the mg42 have differnet roles within their factions.
I agree that atm the mg42 does overperform a bit while the contrary applies to the maxim.

Nevertheless it's definitely possible to bring maxims to good use.

mg42s have 3/4th the survivability but twice the suppression and 3x the arc, it's a pretty good trade off do you think?

because the MG42 was the best machine gun in WW2 and don´t forget its mounted on the Lafette. Therefore it needs a giant arc.

I dont understand why is everyone trying to compare Maxim with MG42. MG42 is meant to be used defensively while Maxim is an assault support weapon and it can even attack without any supporting conscripts in some situations.
MG bulletin has to be nerfed or better changed for something usefull and not IMBA and flanking should be more rewarding in generall (not only against MG42) but this is all we need and this is what we will get in next patch(es) as Devs promised. Any other nerf will totally cripple german early game.

I dont understand why is everyone trying to compare Maxim with MG42. MG42 is meant to be used defensively while Maxim is an assault support weapon and it can even attack without any supporting conscripts in some situations.
MG bulletin has to be nerfed or better changed for something usefull and not IMBA and flanking should be more rewarding in generall (not only against MG42) but this is all we need and this is what we will get in next patch(es) as Devs promised. Any other nerf will totally cripple german early game.

People compare them because they're both HMGs and because right now the MG42 fills any role better than the maxim except for camping buildings (just because soviets have molotovs and germans do not). An offensively used MG42 is a very easy way to ruin a soviet player's day, and I'm thankful whenever germans play passively early game because it means I have a bit more chance to actually get some higher tier units into play.

The MG42 needs far more work done to it than just the removal of the stupid bulletin.

BTW. Germans don't need MG42s at all for their early game, grenadiers are already better than conscripts off the getgo (though only by a small margin, so if you're bad at dodging molotovs and your opponent is good at dodging riflenades then you might have a harder time with just them), require no fuel and manpower costing upgrades to gain special abilities, and scale better late game thanks to their general stats and the availability of the lmg42.

ITT: Many people with no fucking idea of the stats.

@The_Courier:

1) What exactly are you specifically suggesting should be changed on MG42?

2) And why do people keep bringing up explicitly MG42 survival, completely disregsrding that it is akready at 3/4 of Maxim survival? Do you think a MG42 at 1/2 survival of Maxim is realistic or conducive to balance?

I understand that people feel they have claims on this issue, but nobody is giving any concrete specific solution suggestions. Nor do I see anyone trying to reconcile those suggestions with the existing HMG situation on both factions.

Essentially, it amounts to whine with no solution presented, and no consideration of how those changes would match up asymmetrically to Maxim.

Ill run through the apparent asymmetry again.
= Ost Arc vs Sov Setup
= Ost Pin vs Sov DPS
= Sov 6 man vs Ost 4 man

If you have a differing perspective on that asymmetry, please explain it.
If you have a suggestion how to re-align that asymmetry for better balance, please elaborate on that and explain it.

Otherwise this leads nowhere.

NOTE:
- I think people are not understanding the difference between Suppressed and Pinned. The difference in pinning time between HMGs is not as dramatic as people are mkaing it out to be. 2 Bursts from Maxim WILL suppress infantry.
- As difficult as it is to maneuver around the MG42s arc, that is mitigated by two core factors:
-i) Oorah
-ii) The MG42 takes longer to reposition to reapply fire on a succesful flank.
Meaning that though the arc is narrower on a Maxim, and thus flanking action is more essily frontally achievable, it ALSO means the Maxim can proportionately quicker relocate to apply fire on that flank. This is asymmetric balance in practice.

The survival issue is, to me, a complete misnomer. MG42s already operate at 3/4 survival. Its a fallacy to claim that MG42s are too hard to damage with small arms, when infact Maxims are EVEN MORESO. Any claim that MG42s are too survivable, is also a claim that Maxims are EVEN MORE too survivable.

MG42 win maxim every day every week, of course you'll think the instant pin MG42 vs 2 burst pin maxim is fine cuz you never evah play both faction for absolutely sure, stop your fanboism just for one day please, if you want to swap the MG42 and Maxim I think soviet players will be fine

BTW, MG42 will be nerfed next patch, no matter how hard you try to twist OPness into "it's fine" over and over again.

BTW, MG42 will be nerfed next patch, no matter how hard you try to twist OPness into "it's fine" over and over again.

Yes, it will. But not in the way you think lol.
And I'm fairly certain the same nerf will be applied to Maxim too!