Pgrens seem like they have been flipped on their head

The unit which used to be slightly (and I mean slightly) overtuned in its machine gun combat is now completely useless and dies almost instantly if focus fired by 2 units of even the worst quality. Even losing a single Pgren results in a loss of 25% firepower, yet they are completely useless if not at close range. What is the solution? So far I find them to only be useful upon giving them panzershreks, which do work well, but anything less than vet 2 and they can't hit the broad side of a Jackson.

As of now it seems like the only anti infantry option Ost has is a gren squad with G43/LMG and of course an MG42, but because everyone has a mortar these days (which they were not supposed to) and that pretty much makes MGs useless as well.

I will say though I do find it hilarious that a pioneer squad can 1v1 Brit infantry. This sloppiness does not make up for the fact that Pgrens are currently hot trash, and a disgrace.

No secret that PGs are way less cost efficient than Grens for AI. That's why I almost never build them. However this has been the case for years.

Pgrens have always been tricky to use. I'd like to see their pop cap reduced to 8 as their raw performance is laughable for a 9 pop unit. Falls and obers are far better and are also 9 pop. Balance team was going to give it some utility and give it some smoke but even that was too much to ask for apparently. The cheaper schrecks are welcome, but after the overdone stug nerf, the schreck cost reduction is completely necessary. Also, the balance team said they'd make the schrecks more accurate, but I'm not sure if that was implemented or was it scrapped like the smoke nades. Currently the schrecks miss lights sometimes, but generally have no problems with mediums.

Tricky is a good word when it comes to pgren AI. Grens are definitely easier to use and in most cases are better choice. But in some cases pgrens do much better, they just need careful micro.

I'll start with the easiest one: wiping on retreat. I think that one is self explanatory, they are not under fire so they can easily use 4 rifles and they have quite a burst damage.

The next use is when you have a commander with camo. Then you can put them in flanking positions and strike from behind. Very efective strategy that works much better with pgrens than grens as showcased by captainsprice.

Finally, you can also use them normally in combat, just remember to always stay in green cover when your squad is under fire. The reasoning is that losing a single model takes a chunk of your firepower. Remember, that pgrens are effective at all ranges (more or less equal to gren squad with lmg at long range), so it is better to stay in cover at range than lose a model trying to close the distance. That is a very common mistake.

In combat, pgrens are the most effective when they wait in cover for enemy to advance. If your opponent decides to close in on such position, pgrens can force a retreat of two or even three enemy squads before being forced to retreat themselves. Best used against hordes of conscripts.

Pgrens can also be used for flanking in combat, but only if you can use green cover path or building hopping to get them there as they won't be able to finish their flanking manouver if they get focused out of cover.

When deciding to retreat, never wait for the last moment with this squad, unless you are standing at a point you need to capture at all cost. They start to deal little damage when losing models, so it is better to make sure this expensive squad makes it back home than keep the remains of their firepower in the fight.

You must be pulling my leg OP, pgrens are by far my favourite unit in the Ost roster. If I was to add up my wipes in games a good 40% is probably due to Pgren flanks, if you have a 3 man squad retreating with a pgren squad cutting em off their dead. Flank a Zis or maxim and it's gone, once you get vet 3 they are terminators that can just run into engagements and win.

If you want a meh elite infantry unit look at shocks, because Pgrens blow em' out the water.

Pgrens have always been tricky to use. I'd like to see their pop cap reduced to 8 as their raw performance is laughable for a 9 pop unit

8 would put them on the same pop as 5 man tommies, pgrens are obviusly a better unit to them so it would just make Ost early game even more god tier than it already is (looking at you 200mp 222).

Adding a pgren squad or two into your army comp isn't exactly hard either, personally I like to synergise them with Ostruppen doc. 3 ostruppen + MG into T2 and 222 rush and double pgren (maybe back teching for a mortar if needed). Late game either spam P4's and win or if he is surviving until IS-2/Pershing T4 and panthers counter that nicely.

Pgrens are good, but the suffer from typical EFA design of "having drawbacks" and as such are vulnerable. They do great AI damage, but being only 4 models they are somewhat squishy and despite having to close when Tommy's can sit behind green cover (and get a 5th man) they have the same target size. Additionally buying Shreks nukes their AI (unlike WFA, who will usually have 3 men with rifles when kitted out with AT)
They as a unit aren't bad, but they are very much an EFA squad so don't expect them to be blob material that can cost effectively engage at any range and be able to take a million hits.

grenadier + g43 = better pgren.

Despite being pretty squishy, I actually love pgrens a lot. They’re very good for defending your mg42(s) from flanking allied infantry and are reasonably tough with vet. Just remember to be really careful with them as they are only 4 men. I like to use them mostly as a defensive squad and occasionally use them to flank a position (the latter of which can be really risky but also crazy rewarding because of their wiping potential with 4 stgs).

+1 to ferwiner's and Loop's post. That is exactly how pgrens should be used. It requires a lot more thought into it and hence why most people don't use them much is because they aren't efficient a-move units. Most people will just get one pgren if at all. Ambush makes them 10 times better as both camo and sprint are perfect abilities for pgrens. I'm one of the rare players that actually get around 3 of them and skip grens if I'm confident I won't be hit with a 0 min vehicle. So the 9 pop cap is quite painful if you get more than 1. Upgraded rifles/sections cost less pop and can go toe-to-toe with them at longer ranges.

You must be pulling my leg OP, pgrens are by far my favourite unit in the Ost roster. If I was to add up my wipes in games a good 40% is probably due to Pgren flanks, if you have a 3 man squad retreating with a pgren squad cutting em off their dead. Flank a Zis or maxim and it's gone, once you get vet 3 they are terminators that can just run into engagements and win.

If you want a meh elite infantry unit look at shocks, because Pgrens blow em' out the water.



8 would put them on the same pop as 5 man tommies, pgrens are obviusly a better unit to them so it would just make Ost early game even more god tier than it already is (looking at you 200mp 222).

Adding a pgren squad or two into your army comp isn't exactly hard either, personally I like to synergise them with Ostruppen doc. 3 ostruppen + MG into T2 and 222 rush and double pgren (maybe back teching for a mortar if needed). Late game either spam P4's and win or if he is surviving until IS-2/Pershing T4 and panthers counter that nicely.

5man sections will only lose to pgrens if they don't have cover or at close range. It will be a tie at midrange with cover and the section will easily win long range. Upgraded 5 man sections will give pgrens 0 chance to win unless you ambush them or they don't have any cover at all.

Shocks can actually afford to charge a pgren squad and win. The only thing allowing the pgrens a chance if the shocks eat a grenade when charging. I think shocks can also use a pop reduction to 9 if pgrens are 8, leaving only the rangers at 10 which are basically shocks with decent mid-range damage too.

Pgrens are ok, they dominate squads without weapon upgrades and are pretty decent at vet2+. Bringing them onto the field vs vet2+ squads with weapon upgrades, like most elite infantry, they don't look too strong until they vet which can be a struggle at that point.

Best situation to get them is when you went for a fast T2.

I agree with tightrope, if you go for a fast t2 for a 222 rush then a pgren would be okay since youll likely face low vet unupgraded squads, or if you want to supplement grens with some at shreks but they definitely are not the easiest mid-close range unit to use in the game considering they dont have the same durability as the others.

PGrens are good as some others already said.
And of curse the are very good with 2+ Vet, which squad is good with 0 vet (without a weapon upgrade)? Almost none, look at shocks for example.

PGrens are not as good as their counterparts for any of their roles:

AI: Grens with LMGs/G43s and rifle nades - far more effiicent.

AT: Pak40 and Grens with fausts. - far more efficient.

PGrens are a manpower sink for people that want to trendy or dare to be different.

The solution would be to make it so they have a defined role past just being a jack of all trades master of none. Or make them much more powerful but at a greater cost.

A rework could be:

See revision 2.0 below

PGrens cost 400 manpower, are deployed with 2 kar90 2x stg, and traditional stick grenades.

Have one of two upgrade choices both for 80 muni or 40 muni if vet1:

AT upgrade

One panzerschreck, anti tank grenade (only stuns), teller mine ability.

or

AI upgrade

1 x MG34, bundle nade, and booby trap ability.


Stormtroopers have the same problem as PGrens. In fact a lot of the problems in this game have stemmed from ill defined elite infantry, and balance being tied to poor design. Extensive reworks are probably necessary. I consider penal batallions as a product of an extensive rework, where they now have well defined roles, although Strafniki are meant to die not be elite

PGrens are not as good as their counterparts for any of their roles:

AI: Grens with LMGs/G43s and rifle nades - far more effiicent.

AT: Pak40 and Grens with fausts. - far more efficient.

PGrens are a manpower sink for people that want to trendy or dare to be different.

The solution would be to make it so they have a defined role past just being a jack of all trades master of none. Or make them much more powerful but at a greater cost.

A rework could be:

PGrens cost 400 manpower, are deployed with 2 kar90 2x stg, and traditional stick grenades.

Have one of two upgrade choices both for 80 muni or 40 muni if vet1:

AT upgrade

One panzerschreck, anti tank grenade (only stuns), teller mine ability.

or

AI upgrade

1 x MG34, bundle nade, and booby trap ability.

Stormtroopers have the same problem as PGrens. In fact a lot of the problems in this game have stemmed from ill defined elite infantry, and balance being tied to poor design. Extensive reworks are probably necessary. I consider penal batallions as a product of an extensive rework, where they now have well defined roles, although Strafniki are meant to die not be elite

Why not making them effectivly vs armor and AI like Penals with PTRS or Guards with upgrade are...?

Guards can shred infantery (even obers) while will fight effectivly armor after that/ next fight.

pgren are good unupgraded vs AI...but no dmg vs armor
when upgraded good vs armor....but low dmg vs Infantery and a mapower sink.

why no both like penals and guards? make them a 5 or 6model squad and give stats that they can fight both targets

PGrens are not as good as their counterparts for any of their roles:

AI: Grens with LMGs/G43s and rifle nades - far more effiicent.

AT: Pak40 and Grens with fausts. - far more efficient.

PGrens are a manpower sink for people that want to trendy or dare to be different.

The solution would be to make it so they have a defined role past just being a jack of all trades master of none. Or make them much more powerful but at a greater cost.

A rework could be:

PGrens cost 400 manpower, are deployed with 2 kar90 2x stg, and traditional stick grenades.

Have one of two upgrade choices both for 80 muni or 40 muni if vet1:

AT upgrade

One panzerschreck, anti tank grenade (only stuns), teller mine ability.

or

AI upgrade

1 x MG34, bundle nade, and booby trap ability.

Stormtroopers have the same problem as PGrens. In fact a lot of the problems in this game have stemmed from ill defined elite infantry, and balance being tied to poor design. Extensive reworks are probably necessary. I consider penal batallions as a product of an extensive rework, where they now have well defined roles, although Strafniki are meant to die not be elite

Why i don't think it's a good idea.

1/ it suppose to be a closer combat unit, effective at short/mid range. The design is to ostheer have all noncommander kind of infantry. Making them long range (like obers) would be a. too similar to okw faction b. would overlap with grens)

2/ with upgrade it's a mobile AT, not very accurate at long range - yes but can do bigger damage than a pak, cannot be flanked and can be more sniky. Pgrens aren't suppose to be "A" move AT gun that kills any vehicule on their way (we had that with shrek volks blob and that's enough), their role here is diffrent. (though stun nade or teller mine would be pretty cool)

3/ There AI role is to be a flanking unit, not a "A" move squad that wins in every engagement in any range (like guards xD ). This unit needs better micro and that's why it's not very popular.

IMO becouse this unit is very specific it should be just cheaper: 300mp or so. Then you have more atractive hard T2 strat with skipped t1. Giving it more durability would risk with making it unkillable monster.

Making it even more elite, stronger as you propose A_E (therefore increasing price) would close the possiblity to skip t1 and go T2 to have a diversity at the begging of a game (like Penals in soviets)

Why i don't think it's a good idea.

1/ it suppose to be a closer combat unit, effective at short/mid range. The design is to ostheer have all noncommander kind of infantry. Making them long range (like obers) would be a. too similar to okw faction b. would overlap with grens)

2/ with upgrade it's a mobile AT, not very accurate at long range - yes but can do bigger damage than a pak, cannot be flanked and can be more sniky. Pgrens aren't suppose to be "A" move AT gun that kills any vehicule on their way (we had that with shrek volks blob and that's enough), their role here is diffrent. (though stun nade or teller mine would be pretty cool)

3/ There AI role is to be a flanking unit, not a "A" move squad that wins in every engagement in any range (like guards xD ). This unit needs better micro and that's why it's not very popular.

IMO becouse this unit is very specific it should be just cheaper: 300mp or so. Then you have more atractive hard T2 strat with skipped t1. Giving it more durability would risk with making it unkillable monster.

Making it even more elite, stronger as you propose A_E (therefore increasing price) would close the possiblity to skip t1 and go T2 to have a diversity at the begging of a game (like Penals in soviets)

OK how about we remove the mg34 in my proposal and give them stgs with ambush? Also make them 300mp but increase the upgrade cost.

I think the problem is that the basic squads with weapon upgrades are so efficient that there is almost no room for elite infantry across all factions, it isn't exclusive to pgrens.

guards laugh about the performanche from pgrens...while cost the same and need less muni for upgrading and can slow armor

Pgren are hitting the field when basic infantry are still unupgunned, difficil to make them any better vet0. Making them any better would require to delay their availability.

On the other side, people wanted so much to make gren compete vs other infantry than they are simply much more cost effective