Worse patch in history !!
23 Aug 2013, 17:11 PM
#61
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedPffft.
23 Aug 2013, 17:57 PM
#62
Posts: 396
Well I think the usefulness of Shocks are determined by the Meta.
You really need guards to help curtail the ostheer scout cars/halftracks/tanks that can be buttoned/mark targeted. If there was a doctrine with shocks and guards which was heavy infantry with marked target, ppshs, htd or something and probably no call-in tank I think that would be a cool doctrine potentially for Soviets. It would be very manpower heavy with the shocks but would provide a combined arms force. Could be something to look into.
You really need guards to help curtail the ostheer scout cars/halftracks/tanks that can be buttoned/mark targeted. If there was a doctrine with shocks and guards which was heavy infantry with marked target, ppshs, htd or something and probably no call-in tank I think that would be a cool doctrine potentially for Soviets. It would be very manpower heavy with the shocks but would provide a combined arms force. Could be something to look into.
23 Aug 2013, 18:03 PM
#63
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
Really? I agree that Russians are a bit weak now, but I never had problems with the shock troops as Russian. They own infantry. As soon as they hit the field the Grenadiers are running back in terror to keep the distance. Even PGs lose in a fight against them unless they are vetted. - And by that time the Shocks are usually also vetted. Recently I have been trying to use G43s to combat shock troops, but I find them incredibly hard to take out with small arms.
They have a lot of durability, too much. That is why they can win some engagements. But their firepower is really lacking. The PPSH needs some buff, either needs to fire more often or be more accurate/powerful. They should be like an assault units like Commandos that can inflict a lot of damage very quickly on isolated infantry or support units, instead they are this bullet sponge firing paintball guns.
Off topic but I just don't get the same constant damage feeling I got from vcoh. If you had a Ranger w/ Thompsons, MP44, or any other sort of submachine gun unit they would quickly melt the health bar with crits happening more frequently as the target squad health got lower. When a PPSH fires (and they only take these weird 2-3 shot bursts for some reason) it seems to either do nothing, does a tiny amount of damage, or just crits a guy dead. I never see that consistent health bar decay effect which really just seems like those guns are literally RNG machines.
23 Aug 2013, 18:36 PM
#64
Posts: 644
Another thing that must be addressed is the animation times on grenades. Molotov has a far longer cast animation than rifle grenade, so grens can actually fire theirs and then still evade the molotov. Considering how molotov has a much shorter range, how does that make sense at all?
5 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
23 Aug 2013, 18:50 PM
#65
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedFar as I know, the cast timers are identical.
If anything, RNades are easier to dodge, due to the projectile flight time over the minimum range.
If anything, RNades are easier to dodge, due to the projectile flight time over the minimum range.
23 Aug 2013, 19:01 PM
#66
Posts: 665
Another thing that must be addressed is the animation times on grenades. Molotov has a far longer cast animation than rifle grenade, so grens can actually fire theirs and then still evade the molotov. Considering how molotov has a much shorter range, how does that make sense at all?
Hm, no, their cast time is similar. You can easily see the grenadier kneel, aim, then fire a slow-moving projectile. Depending on distance, the ability takes 3-4 seconds to hit, which is very similar to the molotov. If you get hit by a riflenade it's your fault. The only grenade-like ability that's close to OP is the Penal's satchel charge, and that's more due to the unsavory combo of short fuse time, huge AoE and latency.
Also why I agree conscripts and penals could use some love, it's not like the situation is desperate. Depending on doctrine, PPSh conscripts or DP-28 guards (or both, it's not like Soviets lack ammo) can handle anything short of vetted PGrens, and even those run away like little girls when faced with shock troops or the all-powerful sniper. The only outstanding issue is the overly effective MG42, and the devs are looking into it. I'd personally bring it back to 3 men and nerf the suppression bulletin.
Apart from that, this patch is hardly a disaster for Soviets. SU-85s aren't as cheesy as they were (still a bit cheesy tho) and the T-34 can actually hurt armor albeit it could use a bit more penetration to make T3 viable. Only other units that still need a buff are At guns (for both factions) and maybe the Soviet mortar, as well as reducing shock troops to 400-420 MP.
23 Aug 2013, 19:22 PM
#67
Posts: 317
In my experience it is definately easier to win as Germans, that said a Soviet player should not expect to win with just conscripts, I think Russians do need some help in the infantry department. I would really like to see penals more viable either cheaper or more survivability. I think German Scout car Chang e was good but with that i think Soviet scout should get a buff or patch revert As well.
23 Aug 2013, 19:35 PM
#68
Posts: 644
Hm, no, their cast time is similar.
Yes, but molotov range is shorter. As I see it, molotov animation should be short enough to punish a rifle grenade.
5 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
23 Aug 2013, 19:46 PM
#69
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
Yes, but molotov range is shorter. As I see it, molotov animation should be short enough to punish a rifle grenade.
You have additional time to move away from a RNade, as it takes time to fly over the minimum range and to its target.
This is just nonsense your talking.
23 Aug 2013, 19:47 PM
#70
Posts: 589
a shorter animation on the molly would be devastating with the RNG which can immolate the germans with ease
23 Aug 2013, 19:59 PM
#71
Posts: 644
-
a shorter animation on the molly would be devastating with the RNG which can immolate the germans with ease
The RNG is about the same on rifle and molotov now. Molotov really isn't as scary as it used to be. Fails to deman a MG42 sometimes.
The reason for a shorter molotov timing to punish rifle grenade is simply that the german squad has to keep still. It kinda feels natural to follow with a molly when you see the animation. All this requires that the german is stupid enough to fire a grenade from up close and that you are already in or close to molotov range.
5 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
23 Aug 2013, 20:19 PM
#72
Posts: 665
Yes, but molotov range is shorter. As I see it, molotov animation should be short enough to punish a rifle grenade.
And Conscripts have OOorah to get them into molotov range, not to mention the various way they can close the gap otherwise (M3 drop, Truesight use, mortar smoke, straight up vet). Assymetric balance, working as intended. Molotovs could maybe use a slight DPS increase, but all grenades in the game suffer from RNG. Sometimes they barely do damage; other times they blow up all but 1 men. That's why the Satchel charge is so powerful, there's no RNG shenanigans. If a guy is in range, he blows up, end of story. But molotovs and riflenades are reasonably balanced.
There are other, more pressing issues, and blaming molotovs for your defeat is to me a sign of bad play. I main Soviets and have no problem keeping my conscripts relevant except against a PGren rush cheese, and that is easily countered by T1 units.
23 Aug 2013, 20:39 PM
#73
Posts: 480
The RNG is about the same on rifle and molotov now. Molotov really isn't as scary as it used to be. Fails to deman a MG42 sometimes.
The reason for a shorter molotov timing to punish rifle grenade is simply that the german squad has to keep still. It kinda feels natural to follow with a molly when you see the animation. All this requires that the german is stupid enough to fire a grenade from up close and that you are already in or close to molotov range.
Someone launches a grenade at you. You decide to stand in the same place and launch a grenade back... not the best move I've ever seen.
Also, riflenades have a minimum range, which affects their usefulness somewhat, and unlike Molotovs, they don't have any area/building denial thing. If someone riflenades a building, you hop out and hop in again. If someone molotovs one you can't.
Guard nades are the worst in the game at the moment, imo. Slightly better and faster than bundlenades and against smaller squads. Makes guards perhaps too good at their anti-infantry role even against well-managed P-grens and such. Shocks could do with a better nade.
23 Aug 2013, 21:05 PM
#74
Posts: 644
Someone launches a grenade at you. You decide to stand in the same place and launch a grenade back... not the best move I've ever seen.
I am fairly sure that molotov range is shorter than rifle grade min range.
Also, riflenades have a minimum range, which affects their usefulness somewhat, and unlike Molotovs, they don't have any area/building denial thing.
That's untrue. Rifle Grenades can crit buildings or crit on the units inside of the buildings (wiping them). Molotov is a slow burn always (yes flames can crit but only one unit at a time). I find RG much more useful against garrisoned units than molotovs, for the range alone (let's face it, the only time you need to throw nades at a garrisoned unit, it's an HMG)
And Conscripts have OOorah to get them into molotov range, not to mention the various way they can close the gap otherwise (M3 drop, Truesight use, mortar smoke, straight up vet). Assymetric balance, working as intended.
Yeah that's precisely why a slightly faster molotov would make a lot of sense.
There are other, more pressing issues, and blaming molotovs for your defeat is to me a sign of bad play.
I never blamed molotovs for anything. If you want to know what I blame for defeats it's in order
- Forgetting about a unit that then gets gibbed by a nade
- Pgrens
- 222 ScoutCar
- MG42
- PzIV
5 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
blow one up, slap it around
7 OP OH tanks in front of your base
23 Aug 2013, 21:40 PM
#75
Posts: 928
I disagree with OP
Put it this way, T2 T3 game is certainly viable as Russians, now that the T-34 is a lot stronger.
Took down a tiger with T-34s and AT guns without ram. That said, my opponent was derping around with the Tiger but still.
Put it this way, T2 T3 game is certainly viable as Russians, now that the T-34 is a lot stronger.
Took down a tiger with T-34s and AT guns without ram. That said, my opponent was derping around with the Tiger but still.
Had fun doing this earlier
23 Aug 2013, 23:21 PM
#76
Posts: 665
I never blamed molotovs for anything. If you want to know what I blame for defeats it's in order
- Forgetting about a unit that then gets gibbed by a nade
- Pgrens
- 222 ScoutCar
- MG42
- PzIV
All these units have clear counters.
PGrens get wrecked by M3s, snipers, shock troops, and T70s (to use only units available around the same time, let's not bring the KV-8 into this). They get held off by Guards, Maxims, Penals, PPSh conscripts, and T34s until you can get those hard counters out in earnest.
Scout cars get wrecked by guards, AT guns and Ooorah + nade. Also, 70 ammo is a lot, so it means you will have infantry dominance since he has to cut down on riflenades and LMGs.
MG42 is over the top as of now, I agree. But M3s, snipers, mortars (dat smoke), flanking penals can give you an egde. If he's stupid enough to put them in a house, dance around it while throwing molotovs. At worst, Ooorah around them until vehicles can sweep em up. It,s what i do against MG spammers, and it works almost every time.
PIV are easy to counter unless they reach critical mass (which means you've been outplayed). AT nades from the flank, button, AT guns, T-34s can be combined onto a good anti-panzer force, and of course SU-85s still shit all over them. I still would like the T-34 to have more penetration, and maintain that both AT guns should have their accuracy buffed a lot.
So, as a Soviet player, I can honestly say that a player's skill matters far more than his faction as of now. There are some imbalances, but not enough to make either faction clearly OP. You can't blame X unit before blaming your own skill.
24 Aug 2013, 01:11 AM
#77
4 
Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
vehicle pop cap got increased too much i think
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24 Aug 2013, 01:39 AM
#78
Posts: 928
There's an indirect buff through clown cars now being more useless than ever thanks to increased scout car (hard counter) performance as well as increased faust damage. Oh and rifle nade refund so you have way more munitions available as germans if you choose to use that.
Wait, I don't get you.
Do you actually prefer a bug not to be fixed in the name of "balance?"
Had fun doing this earlier
24 Aug 2013, 01:53 AM
#79
Posts: 85
Wait, I don't get you.
Do you actually prefer a bug not to be fixed in the name of "balance?"
What bug? The only bug I see is the clowncar being one of the only early counters to MG42 spam.
24 Aug 2013, 02:22 AM
#80
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
What bug? The only bug I see is the clowncar being one of the only early counters to MG42 spam.
2 bugs.
1) RNade was not cancelling, and costing Munis even if not fired.
2) 222 Upgun MG was not doing any damage. It was firing only cosmetically.
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