Firefly need to be cheaper

The Firefly is too expensive for what it offer, but it's not a bad unit.

first: the firefly is slow. It is infact the slowest tech TD in the game.
With a top speed of 5.3 and acceleration of 1.6, it is slower than the jp4's 5.5/1.9. The Firefly is barely faster than the tiger's 5.2/1.8. Conversely it also mean the Firefly can't chase down an wounded opponent as easily.

This means that Firefly can't escape if it is caught by the enemy. The british lack snare in its tech tree and need to rely on DPS to deter armor rush.

second: the turret is also slow. With a rotational rate of 18 it is actually slower than the turret on the tiger (19). This means that even the panzer 4 can circle strafe the Firefly given the pz4 have both a faster chassis and a faster turret.


third: The 17 pdr have a long reload at 8 seconds. It's partially offset by the 200 damage but it's still got the lowest DPS of the five tech tree TD in game.
Firefly: 25.00
jackson: 25.40
su85: 29.63
jp4: 33.68
stug: 40.00


The Firefly's biggest advantage is the tulip rocket, but it is a huge munition sink. The ability require an individual upgrade which require even more munition.

All this mean the Firefly is a slow TD with a lackluster DPS, that's still vulnerable to flanking despite having a turret. Its biggest advantage is its high penetration and potential burst damage, but that burst damage takes a lot of munition to use. T


It should not be the most expensive tech tree TD in the game. I would argued that it's the most well designed and performance balanced TD in the game, but it is undone by the absurdly high price. Its strength of range and penetration is well justified by the low DPS, slowness, and awkwardness.

The Tulip is munition hungry for a faction that's dependent on off map for artillery.

380 mp 135 fuel 12 pop is more appropriate for what the Firefly offer.


speaking of pop cost, the spring patch is going to increase the Firefly pop cost to 16 pop, which doesn't make sense considering its weakness. Especially since the jpz4 and su85 are only seeing a jump to 15.

That changes feels like a categorical Nerf to the Firefly because of its superficial similarity to the Jackson. It is entirely unjustified and baseless if you examine the jackson vs Firefly more closely. Despite the Firefly's strength it is vulnerable when directly attack, as TD should be.

Brits just need a snare on their infantry. - maybe an ability when having PIAT equipped?

Yeah it's terrible that a TD with a turret has a slow turret rotation speed espically when compared to the turret rotation speed of the jp4 and the stug. /s

You fail to mention that it has strong veteranacy bonuses that directly counter these downsides with a vet 3
Buff, +40 damage, that is unparalleled. Also having a low dps isn't that big of an issue when most of the time you are just taking pot shots at 60 range and the immediately retreating.

Also having a mutionions heavy ability that nukes any vehicle causes requires a lot of munitions? Boo-hoo. You paint the cost:benifit ratio to using the ability as much more balanced than it is in reality. No one is not willing to stare the munitions for a good chance to kill a tank, its benifits far outweigh the munitions cost.

I'm never sure what to make of the Firefly. The unit itself is like the old 125 fuel brittle sniper-Jackson but it pays a substantial fuel premium on top of that. I'd always figured that was for the tulips but it also pays a small fortune in munitions for those.

So I looked up its patch history.





It definitely used to be worth 155 fuel, maybe more. Is it worth that now? I'm not sure.

This is comparing it to other faction's tank destroyers however. Compared to UKF's other heavy AT options it measures up more favourably.

Yeah it's terrible that a TD with a turret has a slow turret rotation speed espically when compared to the turret rotation speed of the jp4 and the stug. /s

You fail to mention that it has strong veteranacy bonuses that directly counter these downsides with a vet 3
Buff, +40 damage, that is unparalleled. Also having a low dps isn't that big of an issue when most of the time you are just taking pot shots at 60 range and the immediately retreating.

Also having a mutionions heavy ability that nukes any vehicle causes requires a lot of munitions? Boo-hoo. You paint the cost:benifit ratio to using the ability as much more balanced than it is in reality. No one is not willing to stare the munitions for a good chance to kill a tank, its benifits far outweigh the munitions cost.

Hahhaaahahhaha you have to get the FF to vet 3 first which is not easy to do and takes a while. THE TURRENT ALSO DOSENT MEAN SHIT BECAUSE IT TURNS SOOO SLOW, a jp4 can litereally spin in circle faster than the ff gun turns. As well as cheap jp4 rapes FF with its dissapearing bullshit to where FF often cant even return fire as it “dissapears” before it can turn its barrel 2 inches to return fire.

ffs just need some adjustments on tulips upgrade muni cost. or give him some bettwr fire rate. or give him back hist moving accuracy again

Hahhaaahahhaha you have to get the FF to vet 3 first which is not easy to do and takes a while. THE TURRENT ALSO DOSENT MEAN SHIT BECAUSE IT TURNS SOOO SLOW, a jp4 can litereally spin in circle faster than the ff gun turns. As well as cheap jp4 rapes FF with its dissapearing bullshit to where FF often cant even return fire as it “dissapears” before it can turn its barrel 2 inches to return fire.

yeah his camo sucks. who the hell can make tanks to move in camo. maybe hydra?

I posted in your bren thread and in the old Jackson thread but Brits will be in the dustbin next patch.

Their only remaining crutch was bren sections+centaur, now this will be gone. Brits will be useless and unused in tourny games for next 7 months until Lelic realise you can't just nerf an entire factions roster (including stuff like AT sections and bren carrier wtf) and have them remain competitive in 1vs1.

yeah his camo sucks. who the hell can make tanks to move in camo. maybe hydra?

Invisible tanks are bull$h!t.

Except when they’re M18 Hellcats in vCoH. Lol

Seriously though, any vehicle moving in stealth is stupid. Please remove this. Stealth while stationary? Fine. Stealth while driving? No.

Invisible tanks are bull$h!t.

Except when they’re M18 Hellcats in vCoH. Lol

Seriously though, any vehicle moving in stealth is stupid. Please remove this. Stealth while stationary? Fine. Stealth while driving? No.

I thought relic themselves said it was going to be patched a few back and never happened correctly with the stealth bullshit, what it also does in ff battles if say jp4 is the wounded tank your after and another tank is by it the dissapearing bullshit will make your ff shoot at the next closest vehicle waisting your slow reload time shot. Really good players know this and will actually exploit it by throwing a light vehicle infront of a jp4 wasteing your FFs round as the dissapearing shit confuses the ffs targeting. Ie jo4 appears ff barrel start to turn to maybe 30 degrees jp4 vanishes again before ff shot can be fired back

Yeah it's terrible that a TD with a turret has a slow turret rotation speed espically when compared to the turret rotation speed of the jp4 and the stug. /s

You fail to mention that it has strong veteranacy bonuses that directly counter these downsides with a vet 3
Buff, +40 damage, that is unparalleled. Also having a low dps isn't that big of an issue when most of the time you are just taking pot shots at 60 range and the immediately retreating.

Also having a mutionions heavy ability that nukes any vehicle causes requires a lot of munitions? Boo-hoo. You paint the cost:benifit ratio to using the ability as much more balanced than it is in reality. No one is not willing to stare the munitions for a good chance to kill a tank, its benifits far outweigh the munitions cost.

1)
ever used a tiger?

As I explicitly outline, the Firefly have the maneuvering characteristic of a tiger. The fact that tiger is vulnerable to flank is a commonly accepted universal truth.

That turret is far to slow to keep up with a flank unit, and in reality you don't rely on the turret only.

Just as important to flank protection is the speed and acceleration of the chassis. The reverse turn is one of the most important defensive maneuver in coh2. Both the Tiger and Firefly are vulnerable to flank because they have both a slow turret and a slow chassis.

Here's a example of reverse turn here:

https://youtu.be/9yaMXWb-NqQ?t=44m28s

note that the jp4 skillfully reverse turn around to face the flanking jackson and even managed to fire before the jackson could.


2)well, yes firefly have +40 damage and that is "unique", but unique itself doesn't necessary mean awesome.

if we are comparing veterancy, the jp4 have access to cloak to vet 1 and that's "unparalleled". The jp4 also get vet hp bonus, something that's unique to the jp4 as well. The Firely also uniquely lack any penetration bonus in its veterancy.

the different TD get different bonus. Jp4's bonus lean toward survivability. Firefly bonus is mainly DPS. They are different and good example of asymmetric balance.

3)Merely taking Pot shot doesn't score you tank kills. This further entrench the role of the Firefly as a support unit, a long range fighter.

It's another reason why the Firefly need to be cheaper and take less pop to maintain. It full a important role but still a niche one. The british need other tanks like comet or churchill to drive the push, but they can't do that if both the Firefly and comet/churchill cost high population to maintain.

4) the tulip is hardy a magic ability.

here's two clips of Nog using its tulip on a King tiger:

https://youtu.be/9yaMXWb-NqQ?t=44m5s
https://youtu.be/9yaMXWb-NqQ?t=40m40s

even against the king tiger the Firefly only managed to land one hit. Those shots also depleted Nog's munition store.

It's an expensive ability that takes a lot of skill and bit of luck to use. Furthermore it require a munition upgrade to even be able to use. It is not a good justification for the Firefly's extremely high native price.

Brits just need a snare on their infantry. - maybe an ability when having PIAT equipped?

the firefly is still an overpriced TD even if the brits get snare. They are essentially playing catch up to the axis.

someone forget the very good vet3 stats and the cheap 25muni commander...and the turrent ...which is a huge advantge compared to other TDs, which are so slow in mostly maps...

and the fact that the FF can kill mediums in the fastest time whith muni...or stun heavy tanks like KT, jagditger etc....mix that with thte AEC and or the brits sniper...and you disable the heavy enemy tank nearly 20sec. WOW!

someone forget the very good vet3 stats and the cheap 25muni commander...and the turrent ...which is a huge advantge compared to other TDs, which are so slow in mostly maps...

and the fact that the FF can kill mediums in the fastest time whith muni...or stun heavy tanks like KT, jagditger etc....mix that with thte AEC and or the brits sniper...and you disable the heavy enemy tank nearly 20sec. WOW!

Do you often feed your armor to firefly without ever making a meaningful push?
That is about the only way it'll see vet3.

Plus, its damage vet does ZERO difference against meds, same 4 shots - and its meant to be effective against heavies.

someone forget the very good vet3 stats and the cheap 25muni commander...and the turrent ...which is a huge advantge compared to other TDs, which are so slow in mostly maps...

and the fact that the FF can kill mediums in the fastest time whith muni...or stun heavy tanks like KT, jagditger etc....mix that with thte AEC and or the brits sniper...and you disable the heavy enemy tank nearly 20sec. WOW!

The StuG can stun turret lock heavy tanks and it doesnt need a upgrade to use the ability

The stug can kill mediums with faster DPS

The Stug costs 90 fuel, the firefly costs 155 fuel

The commander upgrade was nerfed and is pretty much useless, at least Stug get a useful pintle MG and can kill infantry (unlike 440mp 155fuel firefly). Also spotting scopes, escape smoke....

FF is not terrible as a unit but for the cost it's overpriced. Should be 140 fuel like predator camo Jagdpanzer

Im a little weary of a FF buff because of the superiour tracking skill in hammer... Plus tulips are pretty great if a bit expensive. That said i think your target of 35 fuel and 12 pop seems reasonable to me

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You mention nothing about how its midrange modifier is well above the standard TD, which gives it insane accuracy. 12 popcap is just a big no. The unit could use a SMALL tweak in the cost department. There is no need to COMPLETELY rework the entire unit when small changes could easily fix some of its outlying issues.

Im a little weary of a FF buff because of the superiour tracking skill in hammer... Plus tulips are pretty great if a bit expensive. That said i think your target of 35 fuel and 12 pop seems reasonable to me

Yeah but no one uses hammer right now because the royal engineer upgrade is so worth it going anvil and comet still fukin sucks. If anything it would be good incentive to actually choose hammer imo.

Yeah but no one uses hammer right now

I'm not sure that's true.

I'm not sure that's true.

Eh i only use it for ultimate laughs if my opponet is dumb enough to stand in gammon bombs, the tracking isnt that great with thw repair nerfs REs with the extra repair are so nice and double as a backend defensive infantry unit with the vick k

Weither people are using it atm or not hammer tracking could easily turn the FF OP with a shorter reload. It also comes with blitz. A snare, high damage output, speedy mode (even if it's relative) and magic vision is a recipe for abuse.
The FF seems to mostly be designed to be defensive AT which might explain the Cromwell higher than cost pen.