KV8 flames

What do you guys think about this?

I feel the flames should be powerful, but it always kills an entire squad in one burst. Should it be that powerful?

it is specialized AI tank, costs a lot (can loose a game if u choose kv-8 instead of a tank with greater AT capabilities)
It can die to anything slightly with AT dmg so probably in my oppinion should only cost more...again its shit vs everything except infantry , thats the only thing he can do thus the great dmg

I think it is not a problem until it is coupled with su-85s, then it is much harder to take out for obvious reasons

It can die to anything slightly with AT dmg so probably in my oppinion should only cost more...again its shit vs everything except infantry , thats the only thing he can do thus the great dmg

I disagree, the KV-8 can take a lalalaload of AT-fire before going down.

The flame damage needs to be adjusted in similiar ways to the FHT other than that I think the KV-8 is fine.

Yeah the flame damage needs toning down. Granted, it is doctrinal, but it kills inf around 3x as fast as an ostwind for a similar price point, and has heavy armour which bounces P4 and at gun shots into the bargain. It's even better at killing infantry than a brummbar.

Yeah, i think it's fine in other aspects (armor/hp) but its damage is maybe too high in a too short period of time. Im not saying it needs a big nerf, maybe it should bring a full health squad down to one man, but outright killing even vetted squads is a bit much imo.

I know it is dedicated AI... (although there was this one game when the guy spammed them, they can actually take down p4's when in numbers and microed so the damaged kv reverses away)....

but even a dedicated AI tank shouldn't kill an entire squad in one burst. It does the job of the brummbar even better, and costs less if i'm not mistaken.

A good way to deal with kv8's is to faust them, but it is currently almost impossible. The gren squad will most definitely die if you even try to faust it. Your only chance is if the kv is busy shooting something else.

Even if they toned the flame damage down to the level of the FHT it still rips Infantry up like stupid but it actually leaves you a chance to retreat your units instead of instabbqing them.

Even if they toned the flame damage down to the level of the FHT it still rips Infantry up like stupid but it actually leaves you a chance to retreat your units instead of instabbqing them.

Exactly. It should do more damage than the flame ht, but less than it is doing now. I would say you should be able to faust it and retreat with a full hp squad.

The KV8 is balanced only by the utterly crap commander trees it can be gotten from. The unit itself is extremely overpowered, but you give up so many useful commander abilities to get one it effectively has to be to ever actually show up on the battlefield when people are making remotely rational choices.

If they ever drop shocktrooper price so they're actually worth having again and reduce guard usefulness either directly (by gimping the unit) or indirectly (by nerfing certain axis vehicles or making the t34 or atgs actually decent against vehicles) then the KV8 would definitely need a nerf.

@ Mauser: Brummbar 520/170 (and T4), KV8 375/135!

(This said Brummbar is awful for price and nothing should be balanced around it tbh. But it is also a dedicated AI heavy tank).

Yeah KV8 is so much better bang for buck than brumm.

@Cruzz: the incendiary strike is also quite powerful, and it comes in the same doctrine.. I think the soviet doctrines are just insanely useful compared to the german ones, so it may seem to you that the kv8 one sucks but its still very good compared to german doctrines. You also get the IS 2 and ambush and shocks, doesn't sound bad to me at all. Granted shocks are expensive, but they rape. IS-2 is better than it used to be, and I think at-gun ambush is completely under-used due to the overly efficient su-85. Ambushed at-guns should be quite powerful if played correctly.

Also remember that the su-85 can be used in combination with the kv-8 making for extremely deadly at and ai.

There is probably also a c-e commander that uses the KV-8 which im not sure about. Nonetheless, having the rest of the commander be a bit less useful than other commanders does not warrant a call-in tank being overpowered for its price.

@Riggsen: Thanx for the prices.. KV-8 definitely is either too cheap or needs a bit of toning down on those flames. I feel Brummbar is still useless even after its recent accuaracy/scatter buff. It just isn't worth the investment. Hell, for 520mp 170 fuel, i would 100% rather have an ostwind + a gren/mg/mortar squad + 55 fuel still in the bank!(Or just a panther in stead of a brumm). Come to think of it, I could almost get an ostwind and a panzerwerfer for the price of one brummbar.

Many people forget to not only look at units but especially to compare efficiency AND cost. Like in any rts, it is all about cost efficiency and if a unit is too good for its cost, either its cost or stats need to be looked at.

Yeah KV8 is so much better bang for buck than brumm.

@ Cruzz: the incendiary strike is also quite powerful, and it comes in the same doctrine.. I think the soviet doctrines are just insanely useful compared to the german ones, so it may seem to you that the kv8 one sucks but its still very good compared to german doctrines. You also get the IS 2 and ambush and shocks, doesn't sound bad to me at all. Granted shocks are expensive, but they rape. IS-2 is better than it used to be, and I think at-gun ambush is completely under-used due to the overly efficient su-85.

No, the incendiary strike is actually one of the least powerful artillery for its cost. You know that mortar halftrack some german commanders give? The 30 munition (or was it 45?) incendiary attack that it can do is pretty much exactly the same effect as the 150 muni incendiary offmap, over just a slightly smaller area.

ATgun ambush would be more useful if 1. you weren't forced to go T1 anyway to deal with MG42s and to get snipers to deal with axis infantry when you don't get hit the dirt+smgs for conscripts and 2. if atguns were actually worth anything. People aren't overlooking the stealth, they're overlooking atguns in general because they're worthless as a counter to vehicles in 95% of situations you'll find yourself in.

Soviet commanders affect gameplay more than german ones because soviets don't get access to all unit types without them, simple as that. A mirrored situation would be on where grenadiers would get no LMG42 upgrade without a specific commander, where panzergrenadier stg44s were an upgrade and shreks and stg44s were in different commander trees, and so on. Ignoring these basic unit call-ins, I'd actually say german commander abilities are far more powerful (the offmap artillery abilities are all far better on the german side, and stuff like vehicle smoke is fucking fabulous)

The IS2 is still a worthless unit that can't even beat two PIVs or a single panther by itself. It is without a doubt the worst unit in the game cost performance wise. It's like a souped up T34 without the ram in the current version.

There is probably also a c-e commander that uses the KV-8 which im not sure about. Nonetheless, having the rest of the commander be a bit less useful than other commanders does not warrant a call-in tank being overpowered for its price.

Yes, there is, and it has a similar ability list. Incendiary artillery (fairly useless), fear propaganda artillery (even less useful), shocktroops (overpriced and a really bad compliment to the KV8), some plane artillery pffmap (forgot which one and can't check right now) and KV8.

And you are really claiming that taking a commander tree that ONLY has the KV8 going for it doesn't warrant the KV8 being more powerful an anti-infantry unit than the ones that soviets already have plenty of in the form of the oft-ignored T3? No matter how powerful the KV8 is right now, I never make it, because you're giving up too much for the ability to call one in. It could be even more powerful and I still wouldn't pick either of the commanders that have it against anyone I consider a decent player.

Armour's too thick for the DPS it puts out. It's laughably overpowered.

No, the incendiary strike is actually one of the least powerful artillery for its cost. You know that mortar halftrack some german commanders give? The 30 munition (or was it 45?) incendiary attack that it can do is pretty much exactly the same effect as the 150 muni incendiary offmap, over just a slightly smaller area.

I am quite aware of the mortar ht ability. The incindiary fries paks/mgs/mortars to a crisp. It is also a great area denial tool. Also don't get me wrong I'm not saying nerf the KV-8 to shit.. I'm just saying it is too good for its cost, and either its dps flame output needs to be slightly lowered, or its cost should be increased.

The IS2 is still a worthless unit that can't even beat two PIVs or a single panther by itself. It is without a doubt the worst unit in the game cost performance wise. It's like a souped up T34 without the ram in the current version.

Yes I agree the IS-2 is shit vs tanks, but it murders infantry. That being said I dont think a slight buff to its AT capabilities would be out of the question.

No matter how powerful the KV8 is right now, I never make it, because you're giving up too much for the ability to call one in. It could be even more powerful and I still wouldn't pick either of the commanders that have it against anyone I consider a decent player.

Now this is a classic example of a subjective opinion. Maybe you don't see that doctrine as viable, but plenty of pro players do in fact use that doctrine, and therefore it should not have an overpowered unit for its price. end of story.

It needs to be the price of a Brummbar, a Brummbar needs to be the price of it. Discourage base rushing and all that. Currently you can trade them one for one with P-IVs or for a couple of infantry squads and not feel bad about yourself just because they're so cheap.

Edit: On the doctrine... while I don't think it's as synergistic as Guard Motor or something, Shocks are pretty good (is it just me or is their grenade worse than the guard one...) if a little too pricey, ATG camouflage is actually alright and the IS-2 is pretty bad.

The damage/armour I'm kind of alright with but the cost doesn't even come close to lining up with them.

It needs to be the price of a Brummbar, a Brummbar needs to be the price of it.

Seems only fair yes. Especially since the KV is actually better at killing inf than the brumm.

I am quite aware of the mortar ht ability. The incindiary fries paks/mgs/mortars to a crisp. It is also a great area denial tool. Also don't get me wrong I'm not saying nerf the KV-8 to shit.. I'm just saying it is too good for its cost, and either its dps flame output needs to be slightly lowered, or its cost should be increased.

The incendiary artillery I know in this game doesn't kill any infantry that wasn't atleast half-dead to begin with if you retreat after it drops, not counting the occasional flame crits (which I personally hate along with all the other stupidly powerful crits like building collapse and so on, too random to ever balance). And I don't want you to get the idea that I think the KV8 is fine in its current form, I don't, but I also think that nerfing it right now to bring it more in line with other units without revisiting commander trees or general balance would just remove the small incentive to ever pick one of the trees it is in.

Yes I agree the IS-2 is shit vs tanks, but it murders infantry. That being said I dont think a slight buff to its AT capabilities would be out of the question.

To be honest I'd say a single T70 will kill more infantry on average than the IS2, the IS2 likes miss too much even if it tends to gib or kill 3/4 men out of a squad when it does hit, plus it fires slow and the turret rotation is even more painfully slow. For commander callins, both the ISU152 and KV8 are far better in an anti-infantry role than the IS2 and both are cheaper and atleast in the ISU152's case harder to counter.

Now this is a classic example of a subjective opinion. Maybe you don't see that doctrine as viable, but plenty of pro players do in fact use that doctrine, and therefore it should not have an overpowered unit for its price. end of story.

Perhaps, they do, I don't really follow the scene. I know I very rarely see one and when I do it tends to come at a point where the soviets have already won and the thing just makes it go faster, or at a point where the soviets really should have gotten more su-85s instead of wasting fuel on a purely anti-infantry vehicle and causes them to lose.

The incendiary artillery I know in this game doesn't kill any infantry that wasn't atleast half-dead to begin with if you retreat after it drops

I specifically said it roasts paks,mgs,mortars which cannot "retreat". They very often get roasted before they can pack up or be pulled away.

And also, you agree that the incendiary does force a retreat of even regular infantry often, thus confirming my point that it is indeed a good area denial tool.

i honestly dont think it will make the commander useless if the kv gets a small flame nerf. Kindof like the flamen ht nerf decreasing burst duration or increasing reload time (but not quite as big of a nerf than the flamen got). Im literally saying it should just not one shot a squad every time, so you actually have a chance of fausting it. Alternatively a small speed reduction or a cost increase is more than warranted.

I specifically said it roasts paks,mgs,mortars which cannot "retreat". They very often get roasted before they can pack up or be pulled away.

And I didn't mean retreat as in "immediately hit retreat button when the thing drops" but rather as "if you move out of the flame area before the duration is up it doesn't do enough damage to kill anything (again not counting the crits, which will probably happen to one or two men if you had several squads in the area)".

Incendiary artillery does have one hilarious feature for team games. Because of the large uniform damage area and extremely fast drop, if you coordinate 2 (or more) players to fire it at once into the exact same spot it'll actually tend to fry most infantry in the area.

And also, you agree that the incendiary does force a retreat of even regular infantry often, thus confirming my point that it is indeed a good area denial tool.

Most similarly priced abilities would have far harsher consequences if you stayed in the area after the warning lights, which is why I consider it a bad offmap. It's low risk as in it'll usually do something, but it is also low reward because it will tend not to do much. Actually I can't think of a worse one for 1vs1 except for the propaganda artillery (ironically from the same commander). It's slightly better for team games, but balance for those is even more out of whack than 1vs1 anyway.

Regardless of our opinions on the incendiary, Lets keep the discussion about the KV-8.