(SBP) Bren Guns

Take two hypothetical slot weapons.

• The LMG 45 fires one salvo every 5 seconds. This salvo deals damage equal to half an enemy model's health.
  
• The LMG 90 fires the same salvo every x seconds.
  

Equip one infantry squad with two LMG 45s and one with a single LMG 90. Put it up against an enemy squad: each model in that squad deals 1 damage per second. The two LMG 45s each target a different model.

Firstly, give the LMG 90 exactly twice the damage output of the LMG 45: make x - 2.5 seconds. In this situation both teams will kill the enemy squad in 20 seconds.

The LMG 90's firepower is all concentrated onto one model and therefore it kills one enemy model every 5 seconds. The LMG 45s kill two models every ten seconds. Therefore, as you said, the LMG 90's better: it takes the same time to kill the enemy squad but it takes only 50 damage in the process. The 2x LMG 45 squad takes 60.

If you make x = 3 then both squads take 60 damage over the course of the fight. The LMG 90 still zaps a model every two shots but because it's firing more slowly this advantage is negated. The LMG 90 now takes 24 seconds to kill the enemy squad whereas the 2x LMG 45 squad still kills it in 20. The LMG 45 squad is now strictly better.

For values of x between 2.5 and 3 the LMG 90 deals damage more slowly than the 2x LMG 45 but takes less damage in return. Somewhere in this range there's a value of x where the choice between offensive advantage and defensive advantage is a meaningful tradeoff rather than a no brainer.

This is of course a vast simplification but does it illustrate what I'm trying to get at here? A single weapon has an inherent advantage over two half-weapons but surely that advantage can be offset with a disadvantage elsewhere?

It's a good idea. However, burst duration varies with distance from target. Thus, I'd have to do everything from scratch; and that still doesn't save me from messing the DPS curve in spectacular ways.

Just tweaking accuracy is many orders of magnitude less pain.

I wasn't suggesting you actually make the Vickers K and Bren Gun that similar. Personally I'd like them to be as different as possible. The M1919/BAR tradeoff works because the M1919 is better but forces you to stay still which is awkward for USF. The Vickers K and the Bren tread on each other's toes like nobody's business.

Why people keep writing bibles about balance changes without having played the mod?

Why even release anything to the public?

While accuracy may seem safer to mess around with, it still has a ton of variables. Lowering the amount of shots per burst might make damage more predictable in my opinion.

I'm still not convinced with decreasing accuracy being the only option. Not to mention there's two separate LMGs that the British have that just aren't different enough from each other. Burst fire could be key to finally making each of them unique.

Bren = Highly Accurate but Short Bursts
Vicker's K = Longer Bursts but Lower Accuracy

Bren could be a good Anti-Infantry upgrade that improves a Section overall that' quite good at hitting their targets at all ranges but only fire very short bursts. A good offensive LMG. Maybe we could even make it almost like a 3-shot-burst version of the G43 with less punch per shot of course. The possibilities are exciting to think about!

Vickers K could fire long, inaccurate bursts that can't hit much at range but be good at twarting close-range assaults from the enemy. In other words, a good defensive LMG.

I wish there was a chance to play around with it before the patch comes out and tweak it until it works well for everyone.

EDIT: Nonetheless... Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I would be more than happy with the Bren's current accuracy remaining and long range Burst Fire being halved.

I agree that diversifying the roles of the Vickers K and Bren Gun is a good move. Accurate, but short bursts from the Bren to make it an “all rounder” vs high rate of fire with longer burrs but with less accuracy to make the Vickers K a powerful gun closer up but less effective at long range. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t that mean that the Vickers K would be better vs troops in the open or in negative cover while the Bren Gun would be less punishing to exposed troops while retaining more effectiveness vs light and heavy cover? If so, I think that that would be a cool way to make them different. Or, nerf just the Bren and reduce the cost and leave the Vickers K alone, making the half track drops a viable option in a 1v1. Options options options.....

Its not that bad.
Plus, vickers K is also getting this treatment, isn't it?

Is it? I just hope not. they should be as diffrent as it possible to make them more unique

It's not possible to limit picked-up weapons to 1 (Vickers-K), without making them trash (e.g,. 1 gun takes 2 slots).

We have to find a solution for double-wielding Vickers-K anyway to keep them good but not OP. If a solution works for Vickers-K, then an identical solution will also work for Bren guns.

Tweaking accuracy values is the just the best way to tweak DPS curves without shooting yourself in the foot.

the nerf to the vicker is a necessity, but not for the bren.

the same solution used for the m1919a6 will work for the bren gun,

Brens are already weaker then M1919 and tommies are much stronger then rifles at range.
Rifles were limited, because it completely changed dynamics and intended use of the squad.
M1919 gave rifles much more then Bren gives to tommies so it was limited.
If Bren was to be limited, it would need a major buff instead as 1 bren for 60 mun with current stats is comparatively low improvement over any other weapon upgrade for any other squad.

well, right now the tommy bren is too weak to be limited to one and too strong for dual pick up. It's either going to be buffing the bren and limiting it or nerfing the bren decreasing its cost.

buffing the bren and limiting it to one means the tommies still have the option of getting the PIAT. (or retaining the rifle)

It also differentiate it from a dual vicker pick up.

basically what lago said:

I wasn't suggesting you actually make the Vickers K and Bren Gun that similar. Personally I'd like them to be as different as possible. The M1919/BAR tradeoff works because the M1919 is better but forces you to stay still which is awkward for USF. The Vickers K and the Bren tread on each other's toes like nobody's business.

the nerf to the vicker is a necessity, but not for the bren.

the same solution used for the m1919a6 will work for the bren gun,

Probably not. Tommy rifles have vastly different profile to Riflemen rifles.

Also you still are going to be able to use a (presumably buffed) Bren gun with a Vickers_k.

Probably not. Tommy rifles have vastly different profile to Riflemen rifles.

Also you still are going to be able to use a (presumably buffed) Bren gun with a Vickers_k.

lee enfield and bren are derivative on grenadier kar98k and lmg42 to begin with.

fair point about the vicker K and bren, but can't you already do that with m1919a6 and bar?

lee enfield and bren are derivative on grenadier kar98k and lmg42 to begin with.

fair point about the vicker K and bren, but can't you already do that with m1919a6 and bar?

The combo of Vickers_k, Bren gun and tommy rifles is optimised for a-moving max-range (except for cover penalties, luckily).

1919 is max range too. However garands and bars aren't so amazing at a-move range.

Im not even sure why 5 man long range, sub formula reinforcment cost, elite RA, AOE heal on field unit NEEDS to be able to double arm long range firepower to begin with...

Im not even sure why 5 man long range, sub formula reinforcment cost, elite RA, AOE heal on field unit NEEDS to be able to double arm long range firepower to begin with...

because then you need less skill..and can roflstomp the enemy with blobbing around

Im not even sure why 5 man long range, sub formula reinforcment cost, elite RA, AOE heal on field unit NEEDS to be able to double arm long range firepower to begin with...

To stay superior to cheapest infantry getting the same level of buff with their own weapons upgrade. At the beginning dual weapons squad is a soft cap.

To stay superior to cheapest infantry getting the same level of buff with their own weapons upgrade. At the beginning dual weapons squad is a soft cap.

Do you know WHY the cheapest infantry get that weapon? Its because they are and only ever will be 4 men. They have that weapon so that despite their small squad size they can continue to fight as without it dps falls by 25% per model (of whom are easier to hit AND more expensive to replace than tommies btw) tommies dont have that problem becauae they can diffuse the 4 man squad problem.

I think weapon racks and 5 man squads should be mutually exclusive. If thats the case keep brens big and strong, but as long as they get throw on another model (with health, a gun and presenting another target to disperse incoming damage) theres no reason for the bren to be MUCH more than a fancy model.you cant have an inferiour squad inferiour 100% of the time in literally every single way and call it balance. Let okw start with obers and lets see how that balance goes. Same thing, just a smaller scale with tommies.

Do you know WHY the cheapest infantry get that weapon? Its because they are and only ever will be 4 men. They have that weapon so that despite their small squad size they can continue to fight as without it dps falls by 25% per model (of whom are easier to hit AND more expensive to replace than tommies btw) tommies dont have that problem becauae they can diffuse the 4 man squad problem.

I think weapon racks and 5 man squads should be mutually exclusive. If thats the case keep brens big and strong, but as long as they get throw on another model (with health, a gun and presenting another target to disperse incoming damage) theres no reason for the bren to be MUCH more than a fancy model.you cant have an inferiour squad inferiour 100% of the time in literally every single way and call it balance. Let okw start with obers and lets see how that balance goes. Same thing, just a smaller scale with tommies.

Yeah...But the game doesn´t work that way. Tommies are very strong but they have to be in order to carry the entire UKF faction right now. UKF units are always outnumbered by cheaper Axis units. UKF tanks are completly overnerfed, expect for Centaur. They are super vulnerable to LV because they have no snare. They have no decent indirect fire. Weak capping power in early game. Generally vs. Ostheer you face an uphill battle because you simply lack answers for their MG+ mortar combo

Do you know WHY the cheapest infantry get that weapon? Its because they are and only ever will be 4 men. They have that weapon so that despite their small squad size they can continue to fight as without it dps falls by 25% per model (of whom are easier to hit AND more expensive to replace than tommies btw) tommies dont have that problem becauae they can diffuse the 4 man squad problem.

I think weapon racks and 5 man squads should be mutually exclusive. If thats the case keep brens big and strong, but as long as they get throw on another model (with health, a gun and presenting another target to disperse incoming damage) theres no reason for the bren to be MUCH more than a fancy model.you cant have an inferiour squad inferiour 100% of the time in literally every single way and call it balance. Let okw start with obers and lets see how that balance goes. Same thing, just a smaller scale with tommies.

Hence that weapon is vastly superior in stats and allows single model sniping as well as DPS improves greatly with vet due to 40% accuracy, which tommies do not get on top of having inferior LMGs and gaining less raw DPS in comparison to base long range dps then lmg grens do.

Ist almost as it is balanced at the end once you wipe tears and start to see clear the big picture.

If 4 men squads are such an issue for you, add super early 251 for forward reinforcement and These 4 men squads will Change in infinity men squads, especially now that you can protect 251 with freshly buffed shrecks.

Ist ALMOST as if wehr is not supposed to spam grens directly into tiger or panther.

Yeah...But the game doesn´t work that way. Tommies are very strong but they have to be in order to carry the entire UKF faction right now. UKF units are always outnumbered by cheaper Axis units. UKF tanks are completly overnerfed, expect for Centaur. They are super vulnerable to LV because they have no snare. They have no decent indirect fire. Weak capping power in early game. Generally vs. Ostheer you face an uphill battle because you simply lack answers for their MG+ mortar combo

Tommys sure as shit dont need to be all powerful. For 10mp more than pios they have sappers who are better in every way (notice a theme?) If theyre capping power is suffering its because this unit is getting neglected. Sappers btw have the same target size as tommys who have the same target size as panzergrens. They get dps buffs when in cover at only vet 1 (the same vets that unlocks trip flares and super inefficient medkits for other factions) as well as a MASSIVE -33% rec acc at vet3 and a reinforcement reduction. By design sappers are meant to fill in the gaps. They ALSO can get 5 men and arm AT or AI. There is no reason for racks and 5 man not to be a t0 hammer anvil choice because snare aside (and i mean, isnt this the patch that removes faction flavour in favour of drab, uninspired mirror match balance or is that just the snipers?) Theres nothing stopping brits from fighting armour. In live they have a never miss AT gun, that and a now homing piat should be more than enough to scare off a luchs.

There is no reason for racks and 5 man not to be a t0 hammer anvil choice

Sapper flamers.

Sapper flamers.

Eh?

Tommys sure as shit dont need to be all powerful. For 10mp more than pios they have sappers who are better in every way (notice a theme?) If theyre capping power is suffering its because this unit is getting neglected. Sappers btw have the same target size as tommys who have the same target size as panzergrens. They get dps buffs when in cover at only vet 1 (the same vets that unlocks trip flares and super inefficient medkits for other factions) as well as a MASSIVE -33% rec acc at vet3 and a reinforcement reduction. By design sappers are meant to fill in the gaps. They ALSO can get 5 men and arm AT or AI. There is no reason for racks and 5 man not to be a t0 hammer anvil choice because snare aside (and i mean, isnt this the patch that removes faction flavour in favour of drab, uninspired mirror match balance or is that just the snipers?) Theres nothing stopping brits from fighting armour. In live they have a never miss AT gun, that and a now homing piat should be more than enough to scare off a luchs.

What the hell are you talking about? Sappers are locked behind tech. How do they help you with capping? Have you ever played Brits? Or just talking non-sense from your Axis point of view?