I strongly oppose the Soviet sniper change

Bro I said 6 men are more survivable. 6 x 80 health on an AT gun is better than 4 x 80 health... that's just basic math.

Against explosives - yes.
Against small arms fire - more input required (recieved accuracy and shooters accuracy).

Ok. so 6 men are automatically better than 4 men squads no matter their actual stats. thats ur point.

Makes a lot of sense. 10/10

They are automatically better when fighting snipers because snipers don't care about the units stats unless those stats include good long range damage while moving.

Bro I said 6 men are more survivable. 6 x 80 health on an AT gun is better than 4 x 80 health... that's just basic math.

Why do you ignore the fact that Ost support weapons >>> Soviet support weapons no matter if they have 6 or 4 men crews?

This is the funniest thing I heard in the discussion: that a OST fanboy complaining Soviet units are so durable.

Last time I heard this joke is one year ago from OKW player, when OKW has the invincible Volks spam.

Why do you ignore the fact that Ost support weapons >>> Soviet support weapons no matter if they have 6 or 4 men crews?

I wasn't ignoring anything man. I was simply stating that Soviets by design have weapon teams that are better able to survive artillery/mortars/nades simply for the reason of "flavour", rather than for any balance sense.

but in terms of gameplay it doesn't add much except make soviet units more survivable.

Against countersnipes exclusively. Survivability can be modulated by received accuracy to field the same result against small arms as ost sniper 82 hp at 1 rec acc. Soviet recon team got 100hp total? Then make their rec acc 1.2 to 1.25 compared to ost 1 and you have just achieved the exact same goal of normalizing ehp vs infantry without butchering asymmetry between the units.

Mortars can OHK it, contrary to ost sniper who can take mortar to the forehead and shrug it off.
Different strengths, different weaknesses.
Tank destroyers are not meant to counter each other, they are not even meant to engage each other, same goes for HMGs, ATGs(yet soviet ATG can win against all others due to barrage). Why this dynamic should be any different for snipers?

Outside of general mainline infantry and elite infantry, the only other infantry type unit that is supposed to engage its own archetype are ostheer mortars as they have vet1 specifically designed for that type of engagement.

I wasn't ignoring anything man. I was simply stating that Soviets by design have weapon teams that are better able to survive artillery/mortars/nades simply for the reason of "flavour", rather than for any balance sense.

Obviously it is for flavour. Otherwise there would be 1 faction. Games would be completely balanced (if you exclude map balance and spawnpoint balance). And yet - nobody would play such game.

It just doesn't mean that this is unbalanced. One side have more HP, other side have more DPS. Which isn't true for Snipers in next update.

Against countersnipes exclusively.
Mortars can OHK it, contrary to ost sniper who can take mortar to the forehead and shrug it off.
Different strengths, different weaknesses.
Tank destroyers are not meant to counter each other, they are not even meant to engage each other, same goes for HMGs, ATGs(yet soviet ATG can win against all others due to barrage). Why this dynamic should be any different for snipers?

Outside of general mainline infantry and elite infantry, the only other infantry type unit that is supposed to engage its own archetype are ostheer mortars as they have vet1 specifically designed for that type of engagement.

Because the sniper dynamic gives an advantage to soviet snipers, not just a different in flavour. I'm not even sure why I'm aruging with a bunch of noobs and people who don't even play the game though. If you played 10 Ostheer games against top 10 soviet random or top 10 2v2AT teams like I have, and have discussed the issue with them, you guys would all be on board.

I wasn't ignoring anything man. I was simply stating that Soviets by design have weapon teams that are better able to survive artillery/mortars/nades simply for the reason of "flavour", rather than for any balance sense.

Well the balance is that Ost team weapons have more firepower/supression and Soviets better survivability.

Well the balance is that Ost team weapons have more firepower/supression and Soviets better survivability.

>ZIS has barrage ability
>ZIS can wipe PaK
>Your point invalid

I'll repeat myself, cause it seems this discussion is going around in a useless loop.

1- Why not make the spotter rifle transferable instead of the sniper one. Now you don't have to be afraid of trying to countersnipe as OH.

2- 2 models are 64HP are unkillable!!1!1. Increase received accuracy. Counters have also been buffed (in the case of 222, isn't it a 100% increase from 0.75 to 1.5?)

3- Improve incendiary shot 64dmg AoE. Lethal and reliable to kill sniper squad, non lethal but damaging to other units.

4- Make flares reveal cloaked units.

Now you can keep the SU sniper SQUAD, with crappy cloak, 2 models and average RoF.

Oh yes..right. So Zis >>> Pak40.

I give up... Some people just cant be bothered to discuss stuff semi-objectively.

Because the sniper dynamic gives an advantage to soviet snipers, not just a different in flavour. I'm not even sure why I'm aruging with a bunch of noobs and people who don't even play the game though. If you played 10 Ostheer games against top 10 soviet random or top 10 2v2AT teams like I have, and have discussed the issue with them, you guys would all be on board.

And infantry dynamic gives an advantage to ostheer mainline infantry due to weapon upgrade.
Scout car dynamic gives an advantage to 222 against soviet M3.
Halftruck dynamic gives an advantage to soviet M5 which arrives later, costs just as much, but is better armored and better armed out of the gate.
That's the essence of asymmetrical balance, NOT equality of unit singular archetypes on the context-less vacuum spreadsheet graph, but equality of combined arms.
Also I did played against top 10 teams 3 times as both allies and axis and fared good(won 1 game, 2 were close ~1h games). Maybe more, but these 3 I am certain.

Because the sniper dynamic gives an advantage to soviet snipers, not just a different in flavour. I'm not even sure why I'm aruging with a bunch of noobs and people who don't even play the game though. If you played 10 Ostheer games against top 10 soviet random or top 10 2v2AT teams like I have, and have discussed the issue with them, you guys would all be on board.

Interesting. Why are soviet sniper builds not dominating UTT then? Even on maps that are basically perfect for it like Crossing?

Maybe because they aren´t as OP as you make them out to be?

But yeah...you are super pro elite 1337 leet "nosliw". The god of the COH2 universe.

This is the funniest thing I heard in the discussion: that a OST fanboy complaining Soviet units are so durable.

Last time I heard this joke is one year ago from OKW player, when OKW has the invincible Volks spam.

"OST fanboy" even so I play all 5 factions (unlike you, who have literelly NEVER PLAYED anything other than SOV/USF, LUL).

I could care less about Soviet weapon crew durability - I only brought it up because it's a theme that people use to support why snipers should be 2 man ("other units are more durable so the sniper should be too!").

However, the sniper IS too durable. When a soviet sniper can be flanked by two grenadiers, and has to retreat past them over open ground and does NOT die ... that's a joke (and yes, I didn't make that up, I'm speaking from experience)...

Imagine an OST Sniper getting flanked by two riflemen early game. It would be in like 0.5 seconds. Only the soviet sniper can survive 5 seconds of continuous point blank rifle fire and get away.

Whether or not the solution is to make the squad 1 man or make its received accuracy terrible is hard to tell - but the current state of the sniper is without a doubt bad.

You wanna know why grenadiers have higher dps then their con brethern?

4 for 6 man

2 more rifle's AND 2 more bodies to drop. Math behind it translates into roughly 2.5 more dps required to be Equal.

As for dps on long range, it's a joke since grens are moving, mostly at 3 men or less and firing vs a cloaking target.

The only way to kill a sniper is with another sniper, and the 1 man change will not change that.

And if you want to go back to sov sniper utterly destroying ostheer, please make it fire as fast as ost sniper.

Sorry, but this is complete bullshit. For multiple reasons:
1. LVs are getting buffed against snipers
2. Snipers get their RA nerfed.
3. Even this patch, most snipers die to flanks, especially soviet ones. Many die to indirect fire as well.

Because the sniper dynamic gives an advantage to soviet snipers, not just a different in flavour.

An advantage specifically against the Ostheer sniper (and maybe the G43). Elsewhere a 2-man squad sniper squad is a weakness: it bleeds manpower and is more vulnerable to AoE.

Interesting. Why are soviet sniper builds not dominating UTT then? Even on maps that are basically perfect for it like Crossing?

Maybe because they aren´t as OP as you make them out to be?

But yeah...you are super pro elite 1337 leet "nosliw". The god of the COH2 universe.

Just because not every team does it in the tournament doens't mean it's not too strong, man. The tournament is a small sample size. It has however showed up - just looked at game 4 of Brosras/Guard vs Rutra/Dzaraa - Dzaraa spams snipers and it's a very 1 sided, 30 minute victory for the soviets.

It just so happens that USF and UKF are also good in team games, and literallt everything soviets does is good, so you don't always see it (especially on maps like Elst).

Just think about it man: If 5 people show up to a party, and no one eats chicken wings, does that mean chicken wings are inherently disgusting? Of course not - by the same basic logic, if you are capable of following it, teams NOT using soviet snipers in every game does not mean that they are not too strong. There are so many variables to consider - Map pool, players, etc. Even the fact that certain maps are not in the tournament means there are less snipers. If a map like Alliance of Defiance were in the pool instead of Elst Outskirts, I'm willing to guess you'd see more snipers.

Now, after reading this, please take 5 minutes to reflect on why you're wrong before replying. Remember: just because not every team spams snipers in a handful of tournament games, does not mean that the sniper is not overperforming. You can, if you wish, take a look at the games where snipers are produced (particular watch Rutra/Dzaraa, as they are good soviet players) and you can see why its an issue.

Maybe play some games against Rutra as an example. I bet if you played 100 games against him, you would lose 100, and would probably kill a sniper in maybe ... 1 or 2, depending if the RNG gods bless you with laser mortar fire.

Now, after reading this, please take 5 minutes to reflect on why you're wrong before replying.

haha dude...just lol.

haha dude...just lol.

Your 5 minutes isn't up yet.