I for one strongly oppose the sniper changes myself. The 100% accuracy vs Garrisons is a massive mistake. Seriously, that's not how it works in real life. If you are dealing with a Sniper, the first thing you should try to do as an Infantryman is GET THE HELL OUT OF THE OPEN! With this change, there's just no safe-ish place for your infantry now. I can't think of a single thread where someone was advocating this change.
Not very keen on the one man Sniper for Soviets now. Other than the flare which 82mm Mortars already have, there's nothing to make the Soviet Sniper special from an actual gameplay point of view. No, possibly getting a female Sniper with an attractive accent doesn't make up for it. After making such a huge change, it needs something of equal value in return. What though, is the question...
I strongly oppose the Soviet sniper change
24 Apr 2018, 21:03 PM
#61
Posts: 393
25 Apr 2018, 05:49 AM
#62
Posts: 960
With all due respect, we are not in the same level on the discussion nor in the game ladder.
Please, no more comments on my thread. Thank you for your cooperation.
Array isn't wrong, though. Pretty much any sov vs. Wehr game turns into double snipers + penals/guards/con spam, and it's incredibly difficult/frustrating to play against. I'm by no means "pro" (usually around 100-200 in 2v2, but lately a bit lower), but when you're beaten easily by players who should be around the same skill level, something is wrong.
You don't even need to open with double snipers. Soviets have no problem holding ground vs. Wehr via normal means, so bringing in snipers mid-game (instead of rushing Su76s, just get ATGs) can really change things.
It works in 4v4 as well, pretty much the same build, too.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
25 Apr 2018, 06:30 AM
#63
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
- I'm not sure if a one man sniper with better stat is going to make sniper spam more counter-able by Ostheer and OKW, especially in team game. Maybe today Soviet players are less careful with their two men squads but that's doesn't mean they can't improve their sniper micro play and make the situation exactly the same after a short period of adaptation. Axis players are going to lose faster their squad models vs such sniper and maybe bleed the same way if even faster early game.
I have little faith in the argument that Ostheer players will then be able to counter sniper with their own sniper, first because OKW players will be crying in the corner and second because as say before, the bleed right out of the box will be greater.
- Why would the Soviet sniper being inferior than Ostheer one, there is something fundamentally wrong with this fact. Soviet sniper should be different, but making it weaker for the sake of balance is a kind of acceptation balance team could do nothing to balance factions. Then if the soviet sniper has to be weaker, then it has to be cheaper which will could make the situation even worst.
25 Apr 2018, 07:53 AM
#64
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
I have read this thread briefly and still haven't found answers for these questions:
1) On what basis does Soviet Sniper Team is considered to be too survivable?
2) Why is it necessary to remove second model instead of increasing recieved accuracy?
3) Why more durable Conscripts must have lower DPS than less durable Grens, but Soviet Sniper with SAME durability (after proposed change) should STILL HAVE LOWER DPS that its Wehrmacht counterpart?
1) On what basis does Soviet Sniper Team is considered to be too survivable?
2) Why is it necessary to remove second model instead of increasing recieved accuracy?
3) Why more durable Conscripts must have lower DPS than less durable Grens, but Soviet Sniper with SAME durability (after proposed change) should STILL HAVE LOWER DPS that its Wehrmacht counterpart?
25 Apr 2018, 09:09 AM
#65
Posts: 3260
1) On what basis does Soviet Sniper Team is considered to be too survivable?
Experience.
2) Why is it necessary to remove second model instead of increasing recieved accuracy?
Making it one model makes it immune to manpower bleed and makes it vulnerable to countersnipes. Everything else can probably be achieved by tweaking stats.
3) Why more durable Conscripts must have lower DPS than less durable grens Grens, but Soviet Sniper with SAME durability (after proposed change) should STILL HAVE LOWER DPS that its Wehrmacht counterpart?
Because DPS is meaningless when dealing with snipers. They kill on every shot.
25 Apr 2018, 09:11 AM
#66
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Because DPS is meaningless when dealing with snipers. They kill on every shot.
Not really, DPS means damage per second, if a sniper shot faster than the other one, he has a better DPS, even if the damage is a critical shot of 1000 damage each shot.
25 Apr 2018, 09:24 AM
#67
Posts: 3260
It leads to misleading comparisons. Sniper damage is completely unaffected by the defences of the squad it shoots at.
The new Soviet sniper shoots more slowly than the Wehrmacht one because in the Ostheer/Soviet matchup Ostheer has fewer models and smaller squads. If they had the same rate of fire the Soviet sniper would be strictly better.
The new Soviet sniper shoots more slowly than the Wehrmacht one because in the Ostheer/Soviet matchup Ostheer has fewer models and smaller squads. If they had the same rate of fire the Soviet sniper would be strictly better.
25 Apr 2018, 09:55 AM
#68
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
It leads to misleading comparisons. Sniper damage is completely unaffected by the defences of the squad it shoots at.
The new Soviet sniper shoots more slowly than the Wehrmacht one because in the Ostheer/Soviet matchup Ostheer has fewer models and smaller squads. If they had the same rate of fire the Soviet sniper would be strictly better.
And how does it work if wehr uses osttruppen or fights okw who uses pfussiliers?
Ost sniper does not shoot slower against brits either.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
25 Apr 2018, 09:56 AM
#69
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
The new Soviet sniper shoots more slowly than the Wehrmacht one because in the Ostheer/Soviet matchup Ostheer has fewer models and smaller squads. If they had the same rate of fire the Soviet sniper would be strictly better.
Which has nothing to do with DPS.
25 Apr 2018, 10:12 AM
#70
Posts: 474
And how does it work if wehr uses osttruppen or fights okw who uses pfussiliers?
Why would you get a sniper vs osttruppen?
25 Apr 2018, 10:17 AM
#71
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Why would you get a sniper vs osttruppen?
What if you already have one on field before the first engagement?
Its not like its not happening, it even happened on the tournamnet.
And there still is question of okw pfussies.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
25 Apr 2018, 10:27 AM
#72
Posts: 3260
Which has nothing to do with DPS.
Which is why DPS isn't meaningful. What matters for snipers is how quickly they snipe models and the value of the models they're sniping.
If you give the Soviet Sniper and the Ostheer sniper the same sniping speed then the Soviet sniper is more effective: each shot inflicts more manpower bleed because it's killing more valuable models and swings infantry fights harder because the strength of Ostheer squads is divided between fewer models.
What if you already have one on field before the first engagement?
Its not like its not happening, it even happened on the tournamnet.
And there still is question of okw pfussies.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you use larger squads with lower reinforcement costs then your opponent will get less value from their sniper.
25 Apr 2018, 10:35 AM
#73
Posts: 5279
It leads to misleading comparisons. Sniper damage is completely unaffected by the defences of the squad it shoots at.
The new Soviet sniper shoots more slowly than the Wehrmacht one because in the Ostheer/Soviet matchup Ostheer has fewer models and smaller squads. If they had the same rate of fire the Soviet sniper would be strictly better.
Literally nobody is saying "her de derr lets make the soviet sniper shoot the same speed as the ost sniper" im not sure WHY that keeps coming up. What is being said is that the soviet sniper CANT shoot as fast as the ost sniper so what does it get instead? People here AGREE that it cant be a machine gun and the ost sniper has a special role but the soviet sniper meeds one too. If the route is going to be the bitch assed lazy " make it the same but worse" then it needs to be cheaper. Plain and simple and if thats the case then so be it.
Perhaps the way to do it if i wondrous balance squad cant come to an inspired change is balance all snipers against 5 man squads amd call it a day. Ost will bleed a bit more, soviet a bit less but we get the boring mirror match that seems to be the only option
#stalinwept
25 Apr 2018, 10:36 AM
#74
Posts: 3260
What is being said is that the soviet sniper CANT shoot as fast as the ost sniper so what does it get instead?
More individually valuable models to shoot at.
25 Apr 2018, 10:41 AM
#75
Posts: 5279
More individually valuable models to shoot at.
Thats absolute bullshit and you know it
#stalinwept
25 Apr 2018, 10:45 AM
#76
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
More individually valuable models to shoot at.
Oh so when a Ostheer sniper shot at a Tommy squad, it is a less individual valuable model to shot at?
25 Apr 2018, 10:45 AM
#77
Posts: 3260
Thats absolute bullshit and you know it
It's completely true. A Grenadier model is a bigger loss than a Conscript model. It has higher stats and costs more to replace.
That's how the 4 man squads are balanced against the 6 man squads. The models in the 4 man squad are better.
Oh so when a Ostheer sniper shot at a Tommy squad, it is a less individual valuable model to shot at?
When did the Soviets get the Infantry section added to their lineup?
If you're looking at Ostheer/UKF matchup then it's the UKF sniper you're comparing to the Ostheer one. The Soviet one is irrelevant.
25 Apr 2018, 10:47 AM
#78
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
It's completely true. A Grenadier model is a bigger loss than a Conscript model. It has higher stats and costs more to replace.
That's how the 4 man squads are balanced against the 6 man squads. The models in the 4 man squad are better.
When did the Soviets get the Infantry section added to their lineup?
Again, ost sniper does not shoot slower against UKF and UKF sniper already got lower ROF out of the gate.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
25 Apr 2018, 10:48 AM
#79
Posts: 3260
Again, ost sniper does not shoot slower against UKF and UKF sniper already got lower ROF out of the gate.
Which makes it more effective against UKF squads than it is against Soviet ones.
25 Apr 2018, 10:55 AM
#80
Posts: 5279
Where can i get in on this only EFA matchmaking?
Also when i said its bullshit i was referring to the "it gets the privilege of fightimg better units" kinda reply. THAT is bullshit. Are you aware that grens are more accurate than cons amd thus more likley to punish a misstep? Are you aware that 100% of all ost snipers made are GUARANTEED to have access to MG support? To help ensure the safety of the ost sniper? Its not as black and white as "one faction has smaller squads so the other should pay the same for less" if they pay the same they need to be identical and since thats not an option (small ost squads) it needs something else that ISNT dps to make it worth the same (and against ALLLLLLLLL axos factions)
Also when i said its bullshit i was referring to the "it gets the privilege of fightimg better units" kinda reply. THAT is bullshit. Are you aware that grens are more accurate than cons amd thus more likley to punish a misstep? Are you aware that 100% of all ost snipers made are GUARANTEED to have access to MG support? To help ensure the safety of the ost sniper? Its not as black and white as "one faction has smaller squads so the other should pay the same for less" if they pay the same they need to be identical and since thats not an option (small ost squads) it needs something else that ISNT dps to make it worth the same (and against ALLLLLLLLL axos factions)
#stalinwept
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