panther should be slower (and re-evaluating medium speed)

Ah yes, that is correct, now that I've checked the game files.

In fact, looking through it doesn't appear that there are any HE rounds with deflection damage.

ISU and Brummbar.
Unsure of KV-2, its a meme unit no one ever gets.

People saying the E8 is bad. Now I have seen it all.

I honestly wonder if the same person writing coments is the same person with those 1v1 stats i really can hardly belive it. From several recent post ,subjects : and arguments a like it feels like your are out of touch. Hhaa when is the last time you used an ez8 and describe to me what it did for you? Missed infantry with every single main gun shot, slow, pathing errors that made it worse and medium packs but made no brain control one axis tank at a time easier as if it was hard enough to begin with. Here come axis defense on ez8 and comet “ they are generalist” generalist at what sucking balls? Its too hard for me to have to micro battle a comet oanther should win hands down everytime, seriously this is why panther dosent have a fukin job and you wonder why we use mass tds. i can upgrade my weak ez8 with a 50 cal but then again i cant even keep it alive with the worlds best micro or it just sits on the sideline with zero inpact on the match

I honestly wonder if the same person writing coments is the same person with those 1v1 stats i really can hardly belive it. From several recent post ,subjects : and arguments a like it feels like your are out of touch. Hhaa when is the last time you used an ez8 and describe to me what it did for you? Missed infantry with every single main gun shot, slow, pathing errors that made it worse and

Actually I use them regularly and if I do say so myself to rather good use.

Here's the replay review I got today with my E8s.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/69692/usf-and-okw-1v1-review-please-requesting-dave-j4j-or-devm

I don't expect my E8s to deal massive damage to infantry. That's probably why I find them good. I expect the HE sherman to do that, and I expect the E8 with its 215 armor, 720 HP, decent pen and good mobility (0.75 moving accuracy debuff) to deal with armor.

However I'm sure the unit differs drastically from 1v1 to 2v2. In 2v2 you have to worry about the StuG from ostheer coupled with pak walls and raks etc. But in 1v1 for its fuel price it can 1v1 either P4 easily due to its 5 shot kill HP pool.

Actually I use them regularly and if I do say so myself to rather good use.

Here's the replay review I got today with my E8s.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/69692/usf-and-okw-1v1-review-please-requesting-dave-j4j-or-devm

I don't expect my E8s to deal massive damage to infantry. That's probably why I find them good. I expect the HE sherman to do that, and I expect the E8 with its 215 armor, 720 HP, decent pen and good mobility (0.75 moving accuracy debuff) to deal with armor.

However I'm sure the unit differs drastically from 1v1 to 2v2. In 2v2 you have to worry about the StuG from ostheer coupled with pak walls and raks etc. But in 1v1 for its fuel price it can 1v1 either P4 easily due to its 5 shot kill HP pool.

I feel like getting a Jackson is overall a better idea in most team games, also being locked into a meh doc kinda makes me avoid using ez8s that much.

I feel like getting a Jackson is overall a better idea in most team games, also being locked into a meh doc kinda makes me avoid using ez8s that much.

Personally I find the doctrine to be very skill dependant. Fireup, flares, and WP all require some degree of input. Since it is not P47 delete (insert axis tank here) it will be lack luster compared to skill planes.

Personally I find the doctrine to be very skill dependant. Fireup, flares, and WP all require some degree of input. Since it is not P47 delete (insert axis tank here) it will be lack luster compared to skill planes.

Ya thats true, its not awful just hard to use.

Just feels like airborne and recon allow more flexibility as being able to get all ur support weapons without having the back tech is nice.

Personally I find the doctrine to be very skill dependant. Fireup, flares, and WP all require some degree of input. Since it is not P47 delete (insert axis tank here) it will be lack luster compared to skill planes.

Kind of but fireup is something your normally not going to use against okw as you dont want to be close to stg volks sturms, if you teched grenades can work vs ost and their support weps although kind of a rarity, flare can be good in 2v2 and up 1v1 eh i pretty much know where there mg or at gun is anyway. Wp can be epic on ost support weps in a spearhead attack or okw med truck, how ever i find it funnier to drop on axis tank blobs or super heavies as most of them dont know you cant attack other tanks why in the circle even if you attack ground

Actually I use them regularly and if I do say so myself to rather good use.

Here's the replay review I got today with my E8s.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/69692/usf-and-okw-1v1-review-please-requesting-dave-j4j-or-devm

I don't expect my E8s to deal massive damage to infantry. That's probably why I find them good. I expect the HE sherman to do that, and I expect the E8 with its 215 armor, 720 HP, decent pen and good mobility (0.75 moving accuracy debuff) to deal with armor.

However I'm sure the unit differs drastically from 1v1 to 2v2. In 2v2 you have to worry about the StuG from ostheer coupled with pak walls and raks etc. But in 1v1 for its fuel price it can 1v1 either P4 easily due to its 5 shot kill HP pool.

this dismissive attitude toward 2v2+ is why the balance swing so heavily into team game.

the Ez8 is a good tank if you don't have to worry about t4. It will easily out muscle the pz4 and maybe even the stug in a head on contest.

However, while the armor, gun, and hp package are all decent, its mobility is mediocre for a medium tank. At 6.1 2.1 it's slower than the wehr panzer 4 (6.3 2.1).

Once the axis are able to bring their stronger armor into play, the ez8 will find itself outmatch in both speed and brawling capability.

It's too slow to be an effective flanker and too weak to brawler against the heavy. The 76mm have a weak HE and its mg is pretty weak as well. The panther is both stronger and faster, and now with the new mg the panther is almost the equal of the ez8 at killing infantry.

Medium tanks are more than just about killing tanks or some hypothetical 2 medium vs 1 panther match. Exploiting gaps and killing infantry are just as important if not more so. In this job the medium tanks keep to keep itself alive to justify the cost.

It's like not tank destroyer or heavy tank where they can reliably kill other high value target.

- Panther : More HP. Shorter Range and slower : You just described a churchill.

- Making Panther tougher : It has 270' bad armor and 90' GODLY armor.
It has a LONG hypervelocity gun which makes it truely shit in the HE departement.
It's purpose is to deal with the T34/76 hordes.
(T34/85 was built to deal with the Panther, not the other way around)

- Allies tank destroyers make the Panther useless.
Mass MG42 make pure infantry spam useless. Your point?

- StuIIIG has better dps, is cheaper, and has more range.

- I think it's really obvious.

: What you would love : Slower brawler who is immune to allied late TDs.

That is completely the wrong approach.

: Make it a successor to the StuIIIG. It's a weird TD hybrid. Don't make
it more tank. Make it more TD.

It's not a brawler, it's a glass cannon with a god front shield.
Making it a brawler would be... like making MGs (Maxim spam?) mainline infantry.
It would be like making snipers mainline infantry, it would be like making TDs
into improved tanks...

If you want to do that, take out Panther and make it dosctrinal, and make the
tiger into the non-doctrinal late game unit. Seriously.

: If you buff it's health, allied TDs will just get buffs. Look at KT.
If Panthers have more health than KT... You're doing something wrong.


::::
My proposal :
Giving Panther xtra range, less armor rear, slightly more armor front.
(That 270'/90' armor)
Nerf Reverse Speed (If can do it to all tanks)(except Puma)
or simply : Remove blitzkrieg and put Stug's stun
Give it extra range.

So now you have a StuG (Same range, same Stun)(with better pen).
Maybe give it more ROF *IF IT DOES NOT MOVE*.

Then nerf the HE of it's main gun.
And buff it's three MGs
(Same thing that was done with the T34)

So now you have a StuIIIG with better armor, better health, 3x MGs
Weaker HE, stronger AI, that is slower. It also does a better job
vs late-game allied TDs.

It needs to be more vulnerable to flanks (270' paper armor)
It's an expensive toy that is hard to use, but rewards experienced hands.
It punishes people trying to use it like a tiger.
::::

If you want a slower, short range brawler, put a Tiger.
(which you'd have to nerf, because it'd be non-doc).

::::
Reply to Rocket
Side-topic : SNARES.
Germans having tons of snares : Allied have tons of tanks. So what?
Game is not balanced around equals. But balanced around inequalities.
Germans : Overabundance of snares.
Allied : Overabundance of Tanks. If you go all-infantry, then you are immune
to snares

Germans : Few Tanks.
Allied : Less snares.

Germans can have a lot of tanks if they put their mind to it.
Allied can also have a lot of snares if their put their minds to it.
British? AT sniper. AEC MKIII (Thread breaker?) Mines. Gammon Bombs.

Please. People. Stop bitching about 'unbalances'
unless you want game to be pure homogeneous.
100% Identical stats and commanders and units is path to true balance.
People bitch because what they want is contradictory.

For Factions to be different, they need different strenghts, different flavors.
If you don't want homogeneous, then you don't get to bitch about unbalances.

::::
ShadowLinkX37 :
(On your reply to Rocket)
No. You misunderstood what he was saying.
He was NOT saying 34-85 SHOULD have Brit Centaur AI.
He said Germans have too much Snares, which mediums cannot defend against.
If you take away medium's speed, they become useless and die.
THAT is what he said.

Reversing Tigers and KTs cannot be caught by allied mediums.
Allied mediums are screwed.
--
Calling him insane along with Katitof is not a proper reply.
- He doesn't want Centaur AI. He wants to advance more than 8 sec without being snared
instantly on all his tanks.
: Fine, benchmark.
: Panther is a medium tank. Panther is a medium TD. So much fighting over the Panther.
It's a special case. Like the STG44. I suggest we make it more TD, so as to prevent
confusion.
--
Rocket says : Allied meta is to go Premium Mediums to invalidate the Panther. He's about
right. Same thing as allied medium TDs. When Axis goes Panther heavy, the allies HAVE to
go Medium TDs
--
But if you make Panther into a buffed STUG, then dynamics are same as SU76 vs StuG
SU76 : Less health, less armor, more range. StuG : More armor, more health, less range, stun
(StuG has MG, too!) So it'd be in-keeping.
--
Rocket said medium spam works. He spams Ez8.
Ez8 is not a 'medium'. It's a Premium medium. Yes, there is a difference.
Like spamming Panthers is not spamming mediums. Ez8 is USA's Panther.
::::
InsaneHoshi is correct.
Not all axis infantry have snare.
- It's just like saying every Axis tank is a tiger
Allied don't have to deal with clown cars.
::::
Rocket :
- 90% of axis infantry do? - As said earlier, allied don't need to deal with clown car.
Axis do. Also, allied tank spam is way easier to do.
====
::::
====
SweetrollNearTheDoor :
Why make Panther when 2x STUGs do better job of it?
I sort of agree. But can't be helped if :
StuIIIG is better TD than Panther if Panther is a brawler tank (ie: Churchill)
My solution is to make the Panther into a true TD. Then it's more than 2x pop of
StuIIIG would make sense and be desirable as such.

::: He is totally right. Go Brummbarr if AT guns are the problem.
::: He is totally right again. StuG is the linchpin, not the Panther.
====
====
Ez8 got a nerf? I wasn't aware of that. During the December Patch?
Someone care to explain ?
(800 to 720 health?)
====
====
ZombiFrancis
Most deflection damage was removed from the game.
Which, I feel, is a shame.
====
Rocket :
Is why Panther is useless because allied go mass TDs
(ie: He's basically saying MG42s too good at their job, infantry is useless, why
allied are going mass mortars)
(ie: He's saying MG42s are jobless because infantry is useless (because MG42 rape them)
so all allied are going mass mortars - raping MG42s. ie: Panthers are not the problem.
Allied mediums, even Premium mediums, are so useless that allied TD is the only thing
left to do.
====

Armour is 180/180 not 90/270 in game. Any shot on the side has a chance to hit front armour

sov penals guard combo is out of hand....penals guards snare any german tank...penals bomb the hell out of it..

to easy.

and combined this with the nearly ober AI performanche from guards...

sov penals guard combo is out of hand....penals guards snare any german tank...penals bomb the hell out of it..

to easy.

and combined this with the nearly ober AI performanche from guards...

Go calculate the costs of what you Claim to see how ridiculous you are again.
And if its so easy, provide replays of you doing that in top 200 rank.
If you are unranked with soviets, np, its apparently oh so easy, so you will have no problems getting to top 200 after placement games.

Side note 1: If you are using AT penals AND guards, stupid is vast understatement.

Side note 2: This affects panther how? There are counters to button which cost less then button and if you get such fast tank as panther satcheled, you did something horribly wrong.

Damn, this makes me wish for the actual M18 Hellcat to be added, small as an M5 Stuart, fastest Allied vehicle in the Western Theater of Operations with a 76mm gun and a .50 cal mounted on top.

It would basically be Sonic the Hedgehog compared to all other tanks altho it's not really a tank itself.

Faster than old m10?

Faster than old m10?

Perhaps, I didn't play much with it because it felt cheesy to me, same goes for the British mortar pit (which is now mostly useless) and many others.

Perhaps, I didn't play much with it because it felt cheesy to me, same goes for the British mortar pit (which is now mostly useless) and many others.

M10s were like supersonic speed crushing all the axis infantry. Plus 2-3 use to be able to beat any rank in the game.

Armour is 180/180 not 90/270 in game. Any shot on the side has a chance to hit front armour

I KNOW that.

COH2 : No side armor.
Real Life : 4 armor. Front/Rear/SideR/SideL

COH2: Panther front 180' : Godly. Better than Tiger.
Real Life : Front 90' Godly, better than Tiger armor.
Sides, rear : Paper. (270')

COH2: Panther : High health, better than tiger armor, non-doc
Role : Is it a brawler? Is it a TD? Is it a heavy tank?
Result : Heavy Tank better than mediums, with longer than tank range.

Real Life : Panther : Okay health, insane front armor. Great optics. Sniper tank.

I know you'll say Gameplay > Realism.
But if you are going to overbuff the front armor (double coverage),
then you ought to 1) Reduce it's health 2) Overnerf it's rear armor (270' not 90')
3) Increase it's range, 4) Reduce it's speed 5) Remove it's main gun HE 6) Buff it's 3x MGs

The idea being, I don't know, to illustrate genuine Panther armor. Not just make it a non-
doc Tiger.

Say Tiger had 80/80/100 armor (340mm total)
Panther should have 40/50/120 (about) (260 total?)(But notice stronger front than tiger)

Not 160 rear and 240 front ( 80/80/80 - 120/120/120 ) which works to 80/120/120
(360+80 or 440 (better than tiger!)

If you are going to over-armor it in the front, then it ought to be under-armored in the back.

Otherwise, you might as well give churchill health and armor to SU-76s and call it balance! Lol
(Not saying I want SU-76 to have such, but at least an attempt to make it more realistic would
be nice)(And I want it's 3x MGs to be buffed!)

M10s were like supersonic speed crushing all the axis infantry. Plus 2-3 use to be able to beat any rank in the game.

Hey I'm not arguing, and the words which I said about the M18 Hellcat are not mine.

But if I was to implement it in the game it would be as described: small and extremely fast with a good gun.

Basically sonic the hedgehog with a gun mounted on him but he'd get KO-ed by even a single shot.

Hey I'm not arguing, and the words which I said about the M18 Hellcat are not mine.

But if I was to implement it in the game it would be as described: small and extremely fast with a good gun.

Basically sonic the hedgehog with a gun mounted on him but he'd get KO-ed by even a single shot.

Pre buff jackson on steroids?

Pre buff jackson on steroids?

Pre buff Jackson but in a smaller package (harder to hit) and less armor, so even 1 shot from anything would bring it down to a near death state so you gotta be EXTREMELY careful.

If you don't flank you're already dead.