panther should be slower (and re-evaluating medium speed)

The high speed of the panther hurts the viability of the 75mm sherman and t34/76. This is because the weaker allies tank struggle to escape from the stronger and faster panther.

Up until the introducing of the british tank, the panther was actually the fastest medium tanks on the field. This allow the panther to mercilessly hunt down the weaker allies medium tank.

Historically the panther tank had good maneuverability on par with the Allied medium tank, but it wasn't really significantly faster as it is in game.

(from wiki)
wehr panzer 4: 26 mph, 11.84 hp/tonne. In game: 6.3 top speed 2.1 accel
t-34/76 : 33mph Top speed, 18.9 hp/tonne. In game: 6.5 top speed 2.3 accel
panther(A/G): 29 mph, 15.40 hp/ton. In game 6.6 top speed 2.4 accel
m4a3: 30 mph, 14.15 hp/ton. In game 6.4 top speed 2.2 accel

Cromwell (with speed governor) 32mph 21.4 hp/ton. in game 7.0 top speed 2.6 accel

Comet 32mph 17.9 hp/ton. In game 6.9 top speed 2.2 accel

6.3 2.1 panzer4
6.4 2.2 sherman
6.4 2.3 panther
6.8 2.4 comet
6.8 2.6 cromwell
6.9 2.5 t34 size

this would knock the panther down to being only "decent" in terms of speed.

This is also why I suggested to buff the panther's HP to 960 in another thread.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/68895/re-evaluting-the-panther-s-range-and-hp

both in effect make the panther tougher but slower. tougher to allow panther to act as a better meat shield but slower to give the allies medium more breathing room.

Damn, this makes me wish for the actual M18 Hellcat to be added, small as an M5 Stuart, fastest Allied vehicle in the Western Theater of Operations with a 76mm gun and a .50 cal mounted on top.

It would basically be Sonic the Hedgehog compared to all other tanks altho it's not really a tank itself.

If anything this would be even more of a nerf to Panther - slower and higher HP (cough cough Churchill) doesn't really do much in the game. A slower Panther is just fodder for TDs and more HP doesn't help at all because of the high Pen Allied TDs have.

Panther should have an easier time bullying vanilla medium tanks because it's supposed to hard counter them. Even then most people would say that Panther is underperforming for it's cost (mostly due to it's RoF).

... He's trying to make the Panther into a KV1
Normal speed, super tough.

But Panther isn't supposed to be a meatshield.
It's got ~30-50mm of VERTICAL armor on sides and rear.
Game has only front and rear.
So godly front armor now protects 180' instead of historical 90'

I prefer this :
Weaker rear armor, current front armor, current or lower
health. Higher ROF and higher damage. Making it more of a TD
(with 50 range?)(200 dmg/shot?)
- Buff it's MGs (It has 3 of them for @#(*#!@!)

And, yes, poor accuracy on the move, but godly accuracy when stationay.

- I prefer it to have xtra range than xtra speed.
- Actually, I advise all tanks (Save Puma)(It actually had a wheel
for driving backwards! Really!) have severely nerfed backward speed.
(like 1/3).

Actually, I suggest nerfing all tank speeds to spearhead levels.
And THEN nerfing their backward speed.

I have to agree on making the panther slower, but giving it better accuracy and rof. The panther is op vs mediums, but useless vs multiple tank destroyers.

but why? Panther costs nearly double of all mediums. Should it not be a medium hunter?

but why? Panther costs nearly double of all mediums. Should it not be a medium hunter?

Because it forces the td meta. If mediums could flank, chase, or run from it, the panther could receive buffs and be balanced.

Because it forces the td meta. If mediums could flank, chase, or run from it, the panther could receive buffs and be balanced.

If it costs almost double mediums, you should have roughly 2 mediums per panther. Sounds more like a l2p issue than a balance issue.

L2P? How does this have anything to do with l2p? I am discussing the ways we can improve the unit, but give it a way to be countered. L2 strategy, burh.

It has to do with l2p because you can't flank or make plays when you outnumber the unit 2:1? Or because AT guns are overrated that mediums become obsolete? Or use tank destroyers to destroy tanks? Mediums can already counter the OKW panther due to its low RoF if they get on the rear armor. Ostheer panther needs more AT since its RoF now matches that of mediums.

If anything this would be even more of a nerf to Panther - slower and higher HP (cough cough Churchill) doesn't really do much in the game. A slower Panther is just fodder for TDs and more HP doesn't help at all because of the high Pen Allied TDs have.

If the Churchill also had 50 range and 240-ish penetration, like the panther, Churchill spam would be the only thing you would ever see in the lategame.

The problem with Churchill AT is that its penetration is too pathetic, that it needs to flank to deal damage, and and it can't flank with that speed.

It has to do with l2p because you can't flank or make plays when you outnumber the unit 2:1? Or because AT guns are overrated that mediums become obsolete? Or use tank destroyers to destroy tanks? Mediums can already counter the OKW panther due to its low RoF if they get on the rear armor. Ostheer panther needs more AT since its RoF now matches that of mediums.

Then why don't you just use mediums to flank a jakson? Mediums do not outrun panthers or jaksons. Do you see the point? And don't type l2p when your stats are trash tier.

It has to do with l2p because you can't flank or make plays when you outnumber the unit 2:1? Or because AT guns are overrated that mediums become obsolete? Or use tank destroyers to destroy tanks? Mediums can already counter the OKW panther due to its low RoF if they get on the rear armor. Ostheer panther needs more AT since its RoF now matches that of mediums.

It dosent matter if you have 2 ez8s the panther can normally still bully them if they have good micro. Allied mediums are going to bounce off the panther frontally quite a bit still. The exception is if you some how totally blind sight the panther and can use one of your tanks to block it however on most maps this just is not a reality when its a 3 lane map perfectly sized for axis MG arcs. Most the time they can just reverse faster than mediums can chase it, among other gimmicks war speed, smoke tactician etc. You cant really even dive with mediums anymore really anyways they will just get snared as almost every axis infantry has them even axis call in infantry or hit a mine which often results in you losing your mediums and panther escaping with a sliver of health. So more than 1 medium (to use mostly for AI) really not effective for allies anymore hence why I and everyone uses TDs to just try and block axis armor from a safe distance. I really use to like running mediums packs especially ez8s but they just do not seem effective at all for allies anymore in 1v1 maybe more viable but not 2v2 or up.

I'd even be ok with just having snare disable the speed up ability that tanks get.

It's pretty funny to see a snared tank moving faster than an un-snared tank/td.

- I thought snares disabled up-speed abilities already?

- I thought snares disabled up-speed abilities already?

They do but not until it actually hits the tank, so USF is the worse case as most time before the snare even hits a panther reversing especially with blitz its already in FOW and long gone so it makes little difference as its safely behind enemy lines.

Then why don't you just use mediums to flank a jakson? Mediums do not outrun panthers or jaksons. Do you see the point? And don't type l2p when your stats are trash tier.

Because believe it or not, Jackson price isn't that of the panther, and Axis mediums are more expensive than allies. Go figure. Also if you're going to talk about stats, playercard please.

It dosent matter if you have 2 ez8s the panther can normally still bully them if they have good micro. Allied mediums are going to bounce off the panther frontally quite a bit still. The exception is if you some how totally blind sight the panther and can use one of your tanks to block it however on most maps this just is not a reality when its a 3 lane map perfectly sized for axis MG arcs. Most the time they can just reverse faster than mediums can chase it, among other gimmicks war speed, smoke tactician etc. You cant really even dive with mediums anymore really anyways they will just get snared as almost every axis infantry has them even axis call in infantry or hit a mine which often results in you losing your mediums and panther escaping with a sliver of health. So more than 1 medium (to use mostly for AI) really not effective for allies anymore hence why I and everyone uses TDs to just try and block axis armor from a safe distance. I really use to like running mediums packs especially ez8s but they just do not seem effective at all for allies anymore in 1v1 maybe more viable but not 2v2 or up.

Then don't build mediums against a panther, and instead stay at range with a TD and make the panther either A) back off or B) make him come to you.

Then don't build mediums against a panther, and instead stay at range with a TD and make the panther either A) back off or B) make him come to you.

That's exactly what people do, thus you open a thread to complain that panther has no use.

Panther counter medium and heavy tanks.

1- Nobody use medium tank enough to make the panther useful except on 4vs4
2- Nobody use heavy tank to make the panther useful except on 4vs4

Then you've got two solutions imo
1- Or you make the medium tank play meta which require a lot of changes on many units, mostly likely to be impossible today
2- or you change the panther to be something else than a tank hunter, kind of EZ8 maybe. Problem there is already the Tiger in that role. And he'll still face the same counters.

That's exactly what people do, thus you open a thread to complain that panther has no use.

Panther counter medium and heavy tanks.

1- Nobody use medium tank enough to make the panther useful except on 4vs4
2- Nobody use heavy tank to make the panther useful except on 4vs4

Then you've got two solutions imo
1- Or you make the medium tank play meta which require a lot of changes on many units, mostly likely to be impossible today
2- or you change the panther to be something else than a tank hunter, kind of EZ8 maybe. Problem there is already the Tiger in that role. And he'll still face the same counters.

Exactly, but at the cost efficient level of allied TDs the panther is placed into a position where its too expensive yet too easy to counter.