Balance 2018 2vs2

How to avoid degrading a thread which was fine on the first pages: STOP answering to low quality comments. I know, "you" have that urge to correct people who scream to the full strength of their lungs that the problem is on the game balance and not in the hands of the one writing the message. But when people who actually can move their hands, play and adapt to changes, give feedback (which is rare), you could make the effort and avoid it.

If you have engage with someone, why not quote the message from Cruzz, Stark, Sully, Siddolio, SweetrollNearTheDoor, Siphon X, Von Ivan, Gbpirate, etc. I'll tell, you, they are not 1 liners comments.


The only thing i can rescue from the difference in opinions is that, as it has always been in the history of all games, that the experience between people playing randoms and people playing with a dedicated partner, alters the perception of balance of way too many people.
When you play 2v2 randoms, you are not playing against 2 opponents. You are playing against 3. If you are playing against the matchmaking system, that's a whole different concern.

My point still stands because scaling infantry > reset vet on elites. You can test the single BAR vs infantry squads in cheatmods if you don't believe me. Free unlock is a cop out in this arguement. I could say the same about free squads, or more starting resources, or cheaper teching for brits.

That's the problem as i've stated before. You cannot have 1 side have good scaling infantry while the other is forced to reset their vet and get elites. This game is based on veterancy and retreat, so the player with the better vet units will have the advantage.

How is that "reset", your grens and volks are still there with their own vet acquiered during the game.

How is that "reset", your grens and volks are still there with their own vet acquiered during the game.

Because axis elites start at vet 0 and still lose to upgraded allied inf because of it.

Because axis elites start at vet 0 and still lose to upgraded allied inf because of it.

Just use your STG Volks to beat Allied infantry in 1v1 fights at all ranges. They are so op. Didn´t you read this thread??

Because axis elites start at vet 0 and still lose to upgraded allied inf because of it.

In a 1 squad vs 1 squad vacuum you are right, otherwise in the real game nop. A mix of your own veted basic infantry + elite infantry should be equal to Allied veted infantry and then superior.

How is that "reset", your grens and volks are still there with their own vet acquiered during the game.

Because axis elites start at vet 0 and still lose to upgraded allied inf because of it.

Issues with Obers atm is they arrive so ridiculously late when compared to other elite infantry. Take even doctrinal infantry which arrive earlier at around 3 cp.

Yes vet2+ Obers are super strong and are powerful but do take a bit of time to actually vet up before they hit that powerspike , additionally things like the centaur or Sherman shred Obers which come out decent quick after the Obers.

cant believe ther are people defending dual upgrades xDDDD

cant believe ther are people defending dual upgrades xDDDD

Relic claimed there was an army for everyone, dual upgrades provide army choices for those that cant be bothered with anything but attack moving through most of the game

cant believe ther are people defending dual upgrades xDDDD

I dont know why people don´t realize that in UTT Allies struggled to win any games when the opponents were roughly equal. Axis won a much bigger % of the games so far. There were series in which no team could beat each other´s Axis in a BO5 series. What more do you want? Axis isntant win every game within 10 minutes???

Since I play lots of 2v2s random and AT as both axis and allies here are my thoughts:

Brits
- They are still good vs OKW especially on maps where flanking is hard.
- Have huge issues vs Ost because of OP ost mortar, well microed flame HT can completly rape them and forces them to go AEC every single game which means Ost gets P4 earlier than they get Centaur/Cromwell. LMG grens arrive earlier than double LMG IS which can be another problem. Brits are still strong late game, even though Crocodile is useless on most maps. Their tanks are somewhat balanced but Comet is disappointing considering costs.
- Only thing that keeps them alive is Centaur and UC, without those units they would be completly ass vs Ost.

USF
- Mortar HT and Priest are slightly overperforming, their regular Mortar is very good vs Ost. Which makes their indirect fire choices a bit too good IMO. Probably why Priest/Mortar HT are very common despite being doctrinal.
- All their LV are ok. Jackson slightly OP but needed since they lack other good late game options.
- Riflemen are balanced IMO. Paratroopers with Thompsons are OP, probably one of the most overlooked units in the current meta. Rangers feel obsolete.
- P47 needs nerf. Too strong now.
- Overall they are pretty well balanced.

Soviets
- they are pretty meh in early game but become competitive in mid-game. They have answers to both Ost and OKW and are probably the best allied faction IMO.
- Penals feel pretty useless and obsolete now because Conscripts with PPSH package are much more effective and bleed less. PPSH package is too cheap/good.
- Shocks are bad and need a price reduction both in terms of initial cost and also reinforcment cost.
- Guards are too good vs infantry.
- T2 units feel meh but are OK in order to support Conscripts. I wouldn´t really change them much.
- Snipers are a bit too hard to kill even though I think Soviet Snipers aren´t as OP as people claim.
- SU 76 is OP because of range and ROF. Barrage ability should be locked behind vet. Vet requirements need to be increased. SU76 vets way too fast right now.
- All heavy soviet tanks suck, no matter whether you look at KV1, KV2 or IS2. They all need buffs to be somewhat effective.
- IL-2 Loiter needs nerfs, it´s just a braindead ability

Ost
- Ost seems like the special snowflake of COH2 community, people call them most balanced faction etc but I really disagree with that. I feel like they are probably the most cheesy and annoying faction right now.
- Bunkers need to get pop cap and LOS reduction.
- Mortar is ridiculously OP. G43 package for Grens is too cheap and effective (same as PPSH package for Cons). Rifle grenade needs to be reworked to be more consistent but with less wiping potential.
- MG42 incendiary rounds are OP aswell, completly ridiculous
- Stugs are insanely OP, way too much ROF, way too spammable.
- Ostwinds needs AA buff since it cant kill planes quick enough. I dont see the point of getting Ostwind over P4 in this patch.
- Teller mines are too good, they shouldn´t insta kill Stuart, T70, AEC, SU76. People cry about 90 ammo AI demos but Teller mines are somehow fine? Losing a T70 vs Ostheer can often decide the entire game. All that for a cost of 50 ammuntions? Not fair.
- Panthers need to get a slight accuracy and ROF buff.
- Brummbär has too much wiping potential, too much AI DPS generally
- Tiger Ace should be removed from the game, completly unfair and retarded
- Doctrinal Panzer smoke on every single tank is broken, should probably be more expensive or with global cool down
- Generally Ost seems a bit too strong imo. Too many units with huge wiping potential (Brummbär, Mortar, Flame HT, Pzwerfer) + too many comeback mechanics.

OKW
- they got somewhat overnerfed in last patch
- they need pop cap buffs (most importantly)
- KT, ST and Jagdtiger all seem like huge ressource sinks that are just not good enough anymore simimlar to Soviet meme tanks like KV2, IS2
- Luchs build time is too long, makes going Mech uneffective in most situations
- ISG too bad, just a horrendous unit and a complete lauging stock compared to Ost mortar.
- OKW relies on strong early game and ressource advantage in order to stay competitive and win games. Which is a pretty bad design IMO.
- They should definitly have fuel caches available in this current state.
- That being said, their strong start can help them build up momentum early which can be used to dominate games if OKW player makes no mistakes and manages to capitalize on early ressource advantage.

cant believe ther are people defending dual upgrades xDDDD

Doesn't it really depend on what you're getting two of? Guards had 2 ptrs and 2 dp28s long before anyone could 2x Bar/Bren. Pgrens have had 2 schrecks forever etc.

Vet 5 pfussies blob rapes any allied blob lol

Doesn't it really depend on what you're getting two of? Guards had 2 ptrs and 2 dp28s long before anyone could 2x Bar/Bren. Pgrens have had 2 schrecks forever etc.

my bad, im specifically referring to dual bars and dual brens. They should be removed for the same reason dual lmg for rifles got removed.

Duel bars is less of an issue tbh, but dual brens are broken.

my bad, im specifically referring to dual bars and dual brens. They should be removed for the same reason dual lmg for rifles got removed.

Duel bars is less of an issue tbh, but dual brens are broken.

Do you even know the reason dual LMGs for rifles were removed or you're trying to apply some non existing general rule here?

- ISG too bad, just a horrendous unit and a complete lauging stock compared to Ost mortar.

Compared to Ost mortar everything is a laughing stock (except maybe USF halftrack). ISG is okay, just OKW in general are in a weird spot

Do you even know the reason dual LMGs for rifles were removed or you're trying to apply some non existing general rule here?

ummm because ther over performing? to the point they shred every kind of infantry including axis elites at all ranges

the reason below, usf dual lmg got removed from coh2 change log below

The ability to equip two M1919 LMG’s on a squad was resulting in over performing long range DPS for a squad as durable as Riflemen or as cheap as Rear Echelon.

Can no longer be double equipped via weapon racks

Please katitof, post here the DPS of dual brens, oh and when it comes to durability, pretty sure ukf can even upgrade to a 5th man too making them more durable. go troll elsewhere pls

ummm because ther over performing? to the point they shred every kind of infantry including axis elites at all ranges

the reason below, usf dual lmg got removed from coh2 change log below

The ability to equip two M1919 LMG’s on a squad was resulting in over performing long range DPS for a squad as durable as Riflemen or as cheap as Rear Echelon.

Can no longer be double equipped via weapon racks

They made a durable cqc squad excel at range dps.
They switched the role of the unit, erasing ist intended weakness distance.

Please katitof, post here the DPS of dual brens, oh and when it comes to durability, pretty sure ukf can even upgrade to a 5th man too making them more durable. go troll elsewhere pls

I'll do more then that when I get home, I will post you old m1919 DPS values and current bren values as well as compare them to max range DPS of rifles and tommies and base CQC dps of rifles and tommies to illustrate you that old m1919 was much higher DPS increase while squad still kept very potent cqc DPS, which is most certainly NOT the case with tommies, who benefit from the upgrade in much lesser way then rifles did from theirs.

You can read text, but you can not interpret values and unit roles.

You can read text, but you can not interpret values and unit roles.

Every time Katitof posts a puppy is born.

Edit: So I don't slide the thread

I find the current state of double bren from the base tier is hard to deal with when you have no suppression or arty. In terms of counters lmg Obers don't work until they're vet 3 or above, but usually the tommie upgrade is still more effective at times vs this. The only time it isn't is when tommies face STG Obers on urban maps. STG Sturmtroopers or vet LMG grens also fail hard again this type of play. Falls cannot outpace the dps value of double lmg on a tommie squad, even in cover, unless they're at vet 4 or above. Ost has to rely on suppression/arty/and lucky mortar rounds to displace them.

They made a durable cqc squad excel at range dps.
They switched the role of the unit, erasing ist intended weakness distance.


I'll do more then that when I get home, I will post you old m1919 DPS values and current bren values as well as compare them to max range DPS of rifles and tommies and base CQC dps of rifles and tommies to illustrate you that old m1919 was much higher DPS increase while squad still kept very potent cqc DPS, which is most certainly NOT the case with tommies, who benefit from the upgrade in much lesser way then rifles did from theirs.

You can read text, but you can not interpret values and unit roles.

and dual brens also excel at all ranges, and comfortably beat axis elites that's suppose to excel at long range...

the only inf that can even compete are obers with lmg