No Point to Schwerer Flak anymore?

How much pop cap does an emplacment take up? How much does a schwere take up?
What units are required to build an emplacment (and how much pop do THEY take up?) And what units are required to set up a schwere (and how much pop do THEY take up?)
To boot the bofors has 25 pen (mid) and 30 damage while the schwere has 45 pen (mid) and 40 damage

So im not sure where the "my superiour, pop free, self building, included with tech area denial cannon doesnt have all the abilities the 10 pop, binary side tech similar weapon in an enemies roster comes from...

If YOU cant defend it you dont deserve to reap the benifits it yields (although even in base you can benifit from the 100% free AA ability)
Perhaps try playing againt easy okw bots so you can see how a complete retard builds them and aspire up to that

How much pop cap does an emplacment take up? How much does a schwere take up?
What units are required to build an emplacment (and how much pop do THEY take up?) And what units are required to set up a schwere (and how much pop do THEY take up?)
To boot the bofors has 25 pen (mid) and 30 damage while the schwere has 45 pen (mid) and 40 damage

So im not sure where the "my superiour, pop free, self building, included with tech area denial cannon doesnt have all the abilities the 10 pop, binary side tech similar weapon in an enemies roster comes from...

If YOU cant defend it you dont deserve to reap the benifits it yields (although even in base you can benifit from the 100% free AA ability)
Perhaps try playing againt easy okw bots so you can see how a complete retard builds them and aspire up to that

Basically like usf free bar/bar+thompson squad and major (both scaling with veterancy) with nondoc arty, free frp and recon, or brits tier 4 ultra cheap arty, but unlike both it kills your teching when destroyed, the faction having them has zero indirect fire capabilities of any value that isn't locked behind 150 fuel (conviniently forgetting it can't magically become an artillery unlile the "inferior" bofor ?).

But hey, you are right, players must be punished for careless play.
Any usf officer wiped must lock teching.
If you don't want to risk keep your FREE squad at base.
And before starting to cry about popcap, let me remind you what a joke usf popcap is

I dont agree with the usf getting a free squad, i think they should build them because 1) free squads wtf, and 2) POPCAP. being forced to take on a reduced mp income because you teched up (and healing also takes up pop cap btw) is wrong. Make them an optional buildable unit instead of free forced pop munchy.

But by all means have usf teching close out tech when wiped, but they too must cost no population. Ill see you after that change on your thread bitching that the OP usf are causing bleed with 0 pop bonuses that came with nothing more than teching up.

And losing access to your tech because you lost your schwere is YOUR problem. Its a tech building FIRST and offers additional advantages. Treat it as such and act accordingly. If you feel you are incapable of countering a single mortar with your own options address that problem, if you are unable to assault an army of mortars (i.e. mp dump) thats also your problem as for every mortar they build you can nearly match it with a volks squad. The schwere isnt the problem, its players thinking that because it has a gun on it it should fight the whole enemy army by itself and since its a tech structure it should also require the entirety of said army to destroy (whom, looping back, should be obliterated by the schwere because it has a gun on it)

But by all means have usf teching close out tech when wiped, but they too must cost no population. Ill see you after that change on your thread bitching that the OP usf are causing bleed with 0 pop bonuses that came with nothing more than teching up.


If you feel you are incapable of countering a single mortar with your own options address that problem

Agreed, but when usf loses free vehicle crew repair that bring popcap hack.

To be fair, since the usf vehicles have been buffed to the freaking sky, there's no reason they still hold vehicle crews and 0.75 moving accuracy....That ultra snowflake status that is making them wipe the floor with anything in koth.

Please, enlighten me on those "options".
Meme support gun ?
It's a given fact that okw indirect is the weakest of all factions

North or south spawn ? Left or right side? How was it destroyed? By units or offmap ? IF you don't have a pocket healing HQ, a map small enough to have the Schwerer protected by at least one of the players at all times or if you are not spawned on the "defensive" side of a 2v2 map, you put it on the base.
Rails and Metals force the players bases to be divided, which makes retreating leaving a side really vulnerable.

On teamgames, value of forward truck lose value as they can be focus fired by 2 or more players units and offmaps.

Left side of south spawn, back at the cutoff. As soon as it was noticed, smoke mortar, call in arty and major arty made very swift work of it. I'm talking seconds not minutes. There were undoubtedly things I could have done differently but none which were objectively more correct without benefit of hindsight.

Agreed, but when usf loses free vehicle crew repair that bring popcap hack.

To be fair, since the usf vehicles have been buffed to the freaking sky, there's no reason they still hold vehicle crews and 0.75 moving accuracy....That ultra snowflake status that is making them wipe the floor with anything in koth.

Please, enlighten me on those "options".
Meme support gun ?
It's a given fact that okw indirect is the weakest of all factions

While the leig does lack the impact of other mortars it does now have smoke. I know OKW strat since the dawn of time has been "throw volks at it, if you fail you need more volks" (usf and their rifles too, but they at least had smoke on them to pretend they couldnt just face down everything outright) smokeing mgs and making use of them STGs is an option, the flak is really bloody good now, not for diving but anything short of an AT gun will run or die trying. if you happened to go mech you can use a walking stuka to ensure they never build another mg, mortar or AT gun again. Nerfed for sure but the luchs is still an option as well.

There are options. But im starting to think the enemy does a better job defending their mortars than you do defending your schwere....

Basically like usf free bar/bar+thompson squad and major (both scaling with veterancy) with nondoc arty, free frp and recon, or brits tier 4 ultra cheap arty, but unlike both it kills your teching when destroyed, the faction having them has zero indirect fire capabilities of any value that isn't locked behind 150 fuel (conviniently forgetting it can't magically become an artillery unlile the "inferior" bofor ?).

But hey, you are right, players must be punished for careless play.
Any usf officer wiped must lock teching.
If you don't want to risk keep your FREE squad at base.
And before starting to cry about popcap, let me remind you what a joke usf popcap is

You also could have say like Ostheer free LMG/Nade upgrades.

Nobody is complaining about the Schwerer existence but someone is thinking its useless because it has counters... and people know to use them.

Now as for USF, a good revamp with removing free-but-not-so-free officers and adding more flexibility would be greatfull.

It's utter trash design that Brits get Brace while OKW gets nothing.

OKW gets feet and legs and wheels while all British emplacements are immobile.

But with Relic's blatant Allied bias, this is nothing surprising.

Don't throw bricks when you live in a glass house.

As I've noted many times, nothing Axis factions do poses any threat to Allied players, while everything Allies get is threatening to Axis players.

Just an example. Playing as Brits and facing the new OKW Flak HT. If you do not have a AT gun ready before it arrives you have literally nothing to counter it. Nobody uses Piats, especially in that early game face and even if they did, the HT would pin them before they could get in range. Brits don't have any vehicle snares like literally every other faction does. You can get a AEC to counter it which needs research AND building fuel that does not get anything else like the OKW medic HQ does, only to counter a single unit that is still useful in the late game. The AEC is not. Additionaly, the HT can pen and destroy a snared AEC.

You want to take out a British emplacement? You have to commit obscene resources to doing so because of Brace making them effectively invincible, and even if you succeed, that doesn't set the enemy back one bit because of the ludicrous resource income disparity between Brits and Axis factions (same for USF and Axis factions, with USF being able to field an equal or greater number of infantry AND build emplacements).

When I play Brits, I always struggle to find manpower to do stuff. One LeIG is the hardcounter for every emplacement the Brits have because it outranges it. It can shoot the mortar pit without getting shot back. Maybe the LeIG sucks against infantry, but playing against OKW as a Brit means building Mortar Pits is a waste of MP.

You want to take out an OKW HQ? You just dedicate a single mortar to it that can't even be counter barraged by the abysmal OKW infantry support gun that gets instawiped due to lack of retreat whenever it's rolled outside the base.

You can turn that argument 180 degrees as well. You want to take out a Brit emplacement? Just dedicate a single LeIG to it that can't even be counter barraged by the Brit Mortar that can't do shit because it cannot fire as far on its own.

While the leig does lack the impact of other mortars it does now have smoke. I know OKW strat since the dawn of time has been "throw volks at it, if you fail you need more volks" (usf and their rifles too, but they at least had smoke on them to pretend they couldnt just face down everything outright) smokeing mgs and making use of them STGs is an option, the flak is really bloody good now, not for diving but anything short of an AT gun will run or die trying. if you happened to go mech you can use a walking stuka to ensure they never build another mg, mortar or AT gun again. Nerfed for sure but the luchs is still an option as well.

There are options. But im starting to think the enemy does a better job defending their mortars than you do defending your schwere....

Smoke won't do anything against 120 mm, howie and mortars in general.

This is THE POINT. Without wehr mortars is not a risk at all, the destruction of flak is certain at some point.

The OKW strat used to be ten volks back when volks had shrecks, but even pre patch that wasn't absolutely meta.
To be fair, the meta was get asap a luchs or the allied blobs will wipe the floor with volks by yoloing double bar and bren, that can now further cement their pre existant factual superiority.

And yet you are still acting like pure smoke + stg can actually be a working strategy with people of similar or even inferior skill level ?

Bulls, to barely compete until now in any post patch match okw has been using flak ht.

If you go mech you won't get any armor anytime soon and any healing at all. It was usually picked for luchs but had the drawbacks of ultra delayed medium, so figure it out with 100 fuel stuka (find me a single post patch match with this strategy).

There's no risk involved in using mortars, no player will ever lose a mobile unit that can vanish with T.
What are you even on about ?

You also could have say like Ostheer free LMG/Nade upgrades.

Nobody is complaining about the Schwerer existence but someone is thinking its useless because it has counters... and people know to use them.

Now as for USF, a good revamp with removing free-but-not-so-free officers and adding more flexibility would be greatfull.

The old propaganda of ostheer free stuff is just stupid.

Ostheer tech costs aren't any lower than general faction tech costs, but we can split tier 3 costs into 2 side tech and tier 3 anytime you want if you don't mind the huge tier 3 rush buff

The Flak HQ was never intended to hold points on the front line and as such should be used as a sudo-emplacement in the backfield covering an important rear flank/cutoff.

The people above me are arguing that it has to be this emplacement when in fact its actually a tech structure and should be treated as tech + a small defensive building.

The reasons it gets focused down so often is b/c most axis players are keen to have it as a forward building for some reason.

If you want a buff to its main gun, you should have to pay for it with muni.

The Flak HQ was never intended to hold points on the front line and as such should be used as a sudo-emplacement in the backfield covering an important rear flank/cutoff.

The people above me are arguing that it has to be this emplacement when in fact its actually a tech structure and should be treated as tech + a small defensive building.

The reasons it gets focused down so often is b/c most axis players are keen to have it as a forward building for some reason.

If you want a buff to its main gun, you should have to pay for it with muni.

Time to learn how to read. No one in this thread said schwerer should be on the front line. This thread was about it being destroyed even if it's back at a passive cutoff.

Time to learn how to read. No one in this thread said schwerer should be on the front line. This thread was about it being destroyed even if it's back at a passive cutoff.

And that is an issue how?
You place it outside of base, you need to deal with the risk of losing it, if you have put it on your own cutoffs and still lose it, you most likely are beaten to the point of no come back.

If you are too afraid of the risk, then give up its free cannon benefit and just place it at the back of your base sector, where it'll be perfectly safe from anything.

Only singular thing it can't endure is sustained attack and if you are unable to repel sustained attack, you lost the game prior to that event.

Also again, despite it being most durable forward structure, what exactly makes you believe it should never go down?

It takes effort and time to raze it, if you completely neglect repairs and play passively hiding behind it, you fully deserve to lose it, if you're repairing it and taking counter measures, its not going to go down before 40th minute.

Time to learn how to read. No one in this thread said schwerer should be on the front line. This thread was about it being destroyed even if it's back at a passive cutoff.

Im not implying this thread is about people putting it forward, im saying its a trend of normal gameplay and can factor into public perception of it being useless.

Before the most recent balance patches the FlakHQ used to lock down entire sections of the map, making it nearly impossible to push without a large devotion of most of your units that were subsequently suppressed and easy pickings for OKW units. It takes an enormous amount of effort to remove as it stand now or at least requires you to devote a large amount of micro, resources, and time to get it off the map.

If anything should be done I'd say an armor increase or HP increase to negate some of the damage might be okay but as it stand I feel like its fair and balanced and has fair trade offs with how its utilized.







EDIT: Also why make a topic if you seem unwilling to hear others opinions/make fair counter arguments?

Left side of south spawn, back at the cutoff. As soon as it was noticed, smoke mortar, call in arty and major arty made very swift work of it. I'm talking seconds not minutes. There were undoubtedly things I could have done differently but none which were objectively more correct without benefit of hindsight.

So the cut off on the right side, behind the house on the middle, behind the train line, in front of the train line behind the fuel point ?

Rails and metal plays with both side having a half of the map and slowly creeping or you constantly swap between the 2. If you put the Schwerer on any side, this means you are playing for the first.
That's absolutely your mistake (and you are relying for emergency def in your partner) if both armies can't stop a major from running into your position, dropping 2x offmap into it cause your whole army is supposed to be fighting from that side with small incursions from your positions into the left side. If you have the left side and fightings towards the right, it's your fault if you put the Schwerer in any side besides your base as you are extending the frontline in such a way that it's irrelevant that you call a "strat" point a cutoff as it's way more vulnerable than it would supposed to be if you had the other side.

USF: armor (RNG bombs), infantry and the other 2 offmap requires a unit to get nearby.
SU: IL2 /AT nade bombing
UKF: Precision barrage, concentrated barrage

Check what commanders they have on the loadout. Anytime you play OKW, you should know that you can have your trucks been late game nuke by 1.5 offmaps if they have any of the above. That's not hindsight, that's knowledge and experience.

Same way if you are facing, say Penal spam (satchel rush) or late game Hammer (with gammon bombs). If the enemy can have a straight LoS into the Schwerer, then it's not in a defensive position.

isnt the flak gun free? or is it tied in with the cost?. i vaguely remember someone from the mod team talking about making the okw t4 90 fuel, then having to pay additional (optional) fuel or munitions for the flak gun itself

"throw volks at it, if you fail you need more volks"

How am I going to stop some big mean allies from tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind?

The Answer...

Use a blob and if that dont work use a bigger blob

Like this 5 man, 5 vet, incendary nade infantry squad designed for OKW

built by OKW

and you best hope not Attack Moved at you

So the cut off on the right side, behind the house on the middle, behind the train line, in front of the train line behind the fuel point ?

Rails and metal plays with both side having a half of the map and slowly creeping or you constantly swap between the 2. If you put the Schwerer on any side, this means you are playing for the first.
That's absolutely your mistake (and you are relying for emergency def in your partner) if both armies can't stop a major from running into your position, dropping 2x offmap into it cause your whole army is supposed to be fighting from that side with small incursions from your positions into the left side. If you have the left side and fightings towards the right, it's your fault if you put the Schwerer in any side besides your base as you are extending the frontline in such a way that it's irrelevant that you call a "strat" point a cutoff as it's way more vulnerable than it would supposed to be if you had the other side.

USF: armor (RNG bombs), infantry and the other 2 offmap requires a unit to get nearby.
SU: IL2 /AT nade bombing
UKF: Precision barrage, concentrated barrage

Check what commanders they have on the loadout. Anytime you play OKW, you should know that you can have your trucks been late game nuke by 1.5 offmaps if they have any of the above. That's not hindsight, that's knowledge and experience.

Same way if you are facing, say Penal spam (satchel rush) or late game Hammer (with gammon bombs). If the enemy can have a straight LoS into the Schwerer, then it's not in a defensive position.

It was not behind the shed on the right it was back from the munitions point on the left. The point is though that this is not that specific. A similar thing happens in a lot of games where the minimal effort to seek out the schwerer is rewarded too generously with a win in most circumstances.

The fact we establish is that the schwerer is not that useful being outside the base these days after allied power creep in team games. Yet this "free" emplacement is often tallied as a large plus for okw in balance discussions. Why not at least console those realists who know it's too risky outside the base with a discount or production speed boost? The points about USF free units is valid. Their destruction does not destroy teching and okw is the only faction whose teching can be destroyed by off map arty.

Emplacements are cancer. I'll be happy when I never see the t4 set up outside the base again and brit emplacements are a distant memory.

It's literally a free gun on top of the tech structure. If you can't defend it than don't put it in danger.