The benefits of reintroducing 221 scout car.

The 221 was removed from the because Wehrmacht needed a light vehicles with more punch and because the auto cannon upgrade was no brainier.

That created a trend to spam the 222 in resulted in further increasing the cost of 222.

Since now 222 is more expensive and durable vehicle one could reintroduce the 221 as an early counter sniper and soft counter to cars (WC,M3A1,WC51).

That would also allow both units to be better balanced since their will be more option available.

The 222 can remain as vehicle more oriented as hard counter to armored cars and soft counter to light tanks.

One could make the 2 separate vehicles or an upgrade costing manpower/fuel.

As for timing 221 could be placed in T0-T1 requiring BP1 research and 222 could require BP2 research.

The auto cannon could also be changed to start using accuracy and not AOE similar to Luch and Centaur.

It is a tricky proposal. This would mean even more incentive to crutch on t1/t2 and wait for call ins.

Although I would love the 221 back, I don't think it would suit the current Wehrmacht anymore. I rather see the current 222 be able to deal with snipers better. It is mostly the soviet sniper that is a problem for it.

I agree with this, good idea.
Even though if you only want to deal with snipers a simple 222 buff against them would do better

The 221 was removed from the because Wehrmacht needed a light vehicles with more punch and because the auto cannon upgrade was no brainier.

That created a trend to spam the 222 in resulted in further increasing the cost of 222.

Since now 222 is more expensive and durable vehicle one could reintroduce the 221 as an early counter sniper and soft counter to cars (WC,M3A1,WC51).

That would also allow both units to be better balanced since their will be more option available.

The 222 can remain as vehicle more oriented as hard counter to armored cars and soft counter to light tanks.

One could make the 2 separate vehicles or an upgrade costing manpower/fuel.

As for timing 221 could be placed in T0-T1 requiring BP1 research and 222 could require BP2 research.

The auto cannon could also be changed to start using accuracy and not AOE similar to Luch and Centaur.

You are confused as the reasons on why the 221 was removed. Relic strayed away from mp/fuel vehicle upgrades and the 222 was on an odd spot of been a further munition sink, on a faction which requires munitions for early faust, medics, LMG, sweeper, flamer, etc.

221 was a 200 HP vehicle which would trade even with clowncars due to the added DPS from units inside. When they introduced USF, they had to add HP to it cause it wouldn't do well against the USF LT Sherman meta. It was still crap, as they still needed to spend muni to get a 222.
221 was scrap as a concept and they increase the cost (230hp/20f) and made it spawn as 222.
Now the followings changes made the 222 obnoxious to deal with. They buffed the HP to 320 from 240, but they release it with what it seems to be an older build cause the cost went to 215mp/15f (old 221 cost).


1- If you can convince Relic into adding fuel upgrades into vehicles, i'll gladly see it re-introduce. But i'm not sure that is gonna be the case. See: FHT, M5 AA HT, M4 Sherman Bulldozer upgrade, old side skirts for PIV.

2- If "1" is possible, then i'll rather be it a more inclusive change with PG as well. Make T2 not require BP1 to be unlocked, but lock down 222 upgrade, pak (maybe), schrecks, HT behind it. You will get faster PGs and 221. 221 should be old 200mp/15f at 240HP. 222 upgrade gives it the +80HP.

222 upgrade behind BP2 would only work if you plan on making it even more expensive with more HP than now, and making it a pseudo P2, performance wise.

Overall: i don't think it's needed at all. Just buff AI performance against snipers.

As I understood it the Scout Car used to work like the COH 1 Puma: it started out as an AI vehicle with an MG and you could sidegrade it into an AT vehicle with an autocannon. At some point they ditched the 221 and made the 222 do both.

With the current 222 filling the role of both the old 221 and 222 I don't see what the purpose of the 221 would be. Better to just make the 222 more capable at sniper hunting.

As I understood it the Scout Car used to work like the COH 1 Puma: it started out as an AI vehicle with an MG and you could sidegrade it into an AT vehicle with an autocannon. At some point they ditched the 221 and made the 222 do both.

With the current 222 filling the role of both the old 221 and 222 I don't see what the purpose of the 221 would be. Better to just make the 222 more capable at sniper hunting.

Before the change the 221 costed 210/15 and the 222/12/90 after the changes it costed 230/20. So it was an actual buff.

Since then the 222 has been buffed considerably and had its cost increased to 250/30 making the 221 more attractive cheaper option.

By adding the 221 at its original cost and allowing earlier access one gets a soft counter vs allied light cars and a cheaper vehicle to risk chasing enemy sniper inside the enemy base.

Sacrificing a 222 to kill a sniper is not a good choice from an economical point of view.

In addition it open the way for the 222 to re-balanced by gaining more HP or armor and to have its cost better reflect its value.

The 222 does not have to be an upgrade of 221, they can simply be different vehicles as they where in COH1.

I think it is a good idea to give ostheer 221 for a smaller price than 222 and without the ability to kill vehicles. It can or not have an upgrade to 222, but even if the upgrade is going to be there, the 222 probably should still be buildable, not to hamper ostheer munitions economy too much.

I think it is a good idea to give ostheer 221 for a smaller price than 222 and without the ability to kill vehicles. It can or not have an upgrade to 222, but even if the upgrade is going to be there, the 222 probably should still be buildable, not to hamper ostheer munitions economy too much.

Nice to see we agree.

Although your view seem a bit unclear to me, Imo 221 should be a soft counter to light trucks like the WC, M3A1, WC51 which is rather difficult to chase around the map in the early game. Do you agree with that?

The 222 just needs to be like the Panzer Elite one in Coh1. Just increase the price to 50 fuel and let it actually snipe one or two infantry models per salvo.

Currently it's just a throw away unit.

The 222 just needs to be like the Panzer Elite one in Coh1. Just increase the price to 50 fuel and let it actually snipe one or two infantry models per salvo.

Currently it's just a throw away unit.

PE 222 was impotent against any vehicle heavier then jeep(coh2 kubel).
And you're basically asking for something more potent then Luchs here.

The 222 just needs to be like the Panzer Elite one in Coh1. Just increase the price to 50 fuel and let it actually snipe one or two infantry models per salvo.

Currently it's just a throw away unit.

That has allot to do with the fact that 222's auto cannon uses AOE and not accuracy to do damage to infatry.

Actually the current implementation is an unnecessary mess.

Luch Centaur and 222 all use a similar caliber gun 20mm.

222 uses AOE vs infantry since the chances of scoring a hit are low, also has the standard cover modifiers. (0.5/1 yellow, 0.5/0.5 green), (garrison 0.4/0.25) (accuracy 0.05/0.04/0.03)

Luch uses accuracy vs infantry has more than 10 times more accuracy (0.65/0.5/0.4) the 222 but also has other unique feature like: lower cover modifiers (0.5/1 yellow, 0.5/0.25, green, (garrison 0.5/0.3), ignore cover via point blank, accuracy penalty vs vehicles 0.0625.

Centaur uses accuracy vs infantry has even more accuracy than the luch (0.675/0.618/0.56) but has some of the best modifiers vs cover (1/1 it ignores yellow cover, 0.50/1, green, (garrison 0.5/0.35)

These differences offer very little from balance stand point of view and while making it difficult for the user know what to expect from the units.

They could easily be fixed, for instance the the 222 auto-canon could easily start using accuracy vs infantry since its current vet bonuses accuracy on the main gun do not actually offer an real advantage.

Nice to see we agree.

Although your view seem a bit unclear to me, Imo 221 should be a soft counter to light trucks like the WC, M3A1, WC51 which is rather difficult to chase around the map in the early game. Do you agree with that?

I honestly think that killing these can be done in many ways as of now and there is not that much need to give it any more AT role than other vehicle mgs have. To kill these 2 vehicles you can:

• Focus fire them with many units
  
• Place a teller
  
• Faust it and then focus fire with one unit
  
• Build a 222
  

So in my view, the 221 can fit in here as a unit that destroys m3 after faust, but you know, grens can do that as well so it doesn't need penetration for that. If it had an upgrade it could also do what a flame ht now does: pop the upgrade in an unexpected time and kill a vehicle that way.

221 is pretty much a kubel that cant cap but can shoot on the move and has a turret and 222 armour. Mind that kubel is really good vs snipers but only when stationary, which makes that role hard to use. A unit with similar firepower on the move and similar price would go a long way in improving ostheer ability to deal with snipers without going for countersnipe.

The unit could also have some other 60 muni upgrades in more of a support role, to make it a platform, kind of like a ostheer bunker. So for example I can see it getting upgrade that allows it to be self hulled down into a position that can give sight/minimap markers if set up in friendly sector. Things like that. But it should never get kubel style cap or supression, that would be too good if its going to be cheap and have 222 armour.

I honestly ...

Think we agree the original pintle mg of the 221 had a suppression of 1 and an accuracy modifier 1.5 vs sniper.

It could still soft counter the cars.

One can start there and see how it goes.

Nice to see we agree.

Although your view seem a bit unclear to me, Imo 221 should be a soft counter to light trucks like the WC, M3A1, WC51 which is rather difficult to chase around the map in the early game. Do you agree with that?

unless the 221 arrive in the first minute it's impractical as the counter to the light truck.

For that matter you can simply build a halftrack and it would serve the same purpose.

the 222 is just not practical as the wehr's answer to allied light vehicle. It's too late for the trucks and too weak for the light tank.

That's ultimately the source of the armored care's problem. The people buy it to counter the allied vehicle. For a while it was actually kind of cost-effective for that purpose, but then the mg42 fix raised its price so now it's impractical again.

221 would be only sensible if it had some more specialised role, it was capable to cap ponts or locking them down.

unless the 221 arrive in the first minute it's impractical as the counter to the light truck.

For that matter you can simply build a halftrack and it would serve the same purpose.

the 222 is just not practical as the wehr's answer to allied light vehicle. It's too late for the trucks and too weak for the light tank.

That's ultimately the source of the armored care's problem. The people buy it to counter the allied vehicle. For a while it was actually kind of cost-effective for that purpose, but then the mg42 fix raised its price so now it's impractical again.

You build 1st 222 to counter UC, and if it lives after that you get the second to get the AEC. Which can be done quite easily with a little bait or supraise factor. So at least against brits it does serve a purpose of LV counter.

But actually, the thread is about a light vehicle to counter snipers. I think if its stats are reasonable, it could possibly be available in T1, for the counter to be early enough.