Crocodile is useless in team games since patch

Churchill has a main gun ,4 mg (vet 1) and Grenades. It can kill infantry better than other tanks.

Could you please post total DPS of these multiple and amazing churchill MGs at both, close and far range and compare them to OKW P4 or Panther summarized MG DPS for example?

Oh and let me point out that it is impossible for churchill to focus all its MGs on a single squad, contrary to MGs on literally any other tank but KV series.

Could you please post total DPS of these multiple and amazing churchill MGs at both, close and far range and compare them to OKW P4 or Panther summarized MG DPS for example?

Oh and let me point out that it is impossible for churchill to focus all its MGs on a single squad, contrary to MGs on literally any other tank but KV series.

Since you ask politely here are the DPS of mg the Churchill and PzIV (0/10/20/30) (although you should be able to find them from file made from the Coh2 tools) :

churchill_hull_defense_left_mp---5.79/5.79/4.92/3.81
churchill_hull_defense_right_mp--5.79/5.79/4.92/3.81

churchill_mk7_vehicle_hull_mp--5.79/5.79/4.92/3.81
generic_mg34_hull_mp-----------8.09/8.09/7.08/6.26

churchill_mk7_coaxial_vehicle_turret_mp--7.57/7.57/5.52/4.17
generic_mg34_coaxial_mp----------------8.09/8.09/6.97/6.12

I do have to point out that Churchill can also through grenades.

Any comparison you want to do you will have to do yourself.

Any particular reason you do include vet MGs on church, but completely ignored the pintle one on P4 and panther?

Or you just pretend it does not exist, because it doesn't suit your argument about churchill having strong MGs?

I provided you with what you asked and even ignored the irony, and told you can do any comparison you like.

Instead of a "thank you", I get more bitching. If you want to compare something go ahead but do not make about what I do or do not do.

You've ignored a very critical and meaningful fact that when included, suddenly makes your point void.

You expected flowers and a box of chocolates?
You do the exact very same thing you accuse others of constantly.

So now let me throw that last piece here:

Combined DPS of churchill MGs is 13,27 at long range and 26,87 at close range.
Only coax and singular other MG can focus any one squad resulting in very best case with 6,77 to 14,45 dps.

Combined DPS of P4/Panther(with ALL the MGs it got, not only the ones convenient for argument) is 15,66 at far and 31,57 dps at close and ALL THREE can focus any given squad at the time.

The numbers will change depending on formulas you want to use, but they are not going to change the relation.

Churchill has a main gun ,4 mg (vet 1) and Grenades. It can kill infantry better than other tanks.

Your argument made it sound like churchills MGs made it some kind of powerhouse in comparison to other tanks, when in fact, because of how these MGs work, its WORSE at killing infantry then other tanks.
Nade is irrelevant, unless you allowed churchill to get behind your ATG.

I'm pointing out you're wrong and are trying again to force semantic argument down our throats, ESPECIALLY with you ignoring the pintle MG, which only shows how much bias you're going to show only to make your argument sound more "solid".

You've ignored a very critical and meaningful fact that when included, suddenly makes your point void.

You expected flowers and a box of chocolates?
You do the exact very same thing you accuse others of constantly.

If in your opinion the Chuchill needs more AI pls elaborate, but once more leave me out of it.

If in your opinion the Chuchill needs more AI pls elaborate, but once more leave me out of it.

Added content to previous post, take it as an answer. My opinion if it needs more or less AI is irrelevant for the current issue.

Added content to previous post, take it as an answer. My opinion if it needs more or less AI is irrelevant for the current issue.

In other words, the whole point all your latest post posts, is irrelevant to this thread, and can be summarized in that you want to prove that my response to Firesparks is wrong.
Show Spoiler

I am sorry I but I don't feel like playing who is "right" who is "wrong" right now, and I will only respond to posts that are relevant to the performance of the Churchill and Churchill crocodile for now.

I have provided my opinion and I would add to it that I would rather face infantry with Churchill than Panther or PzIV.

Now now children....
Katitof he provided the into you requested. The side hatch MGs are relevant as they come with the church, vet locked but included in the price.

Now now children....
Katitof he provided the into you requested. The side hatch MGs are relevant as they come with the church, vet locked but included in the price.

(using the figure from vipper)

the firing arc of the frontal hull and the side mg doesn't overlap. It's just big enough to provide 320 degree frontal coverage.

You can face the churchill to have three of those weak mg to fire on the same squad, but they will be firing on different individual soldier.

The mg themselves are pretty weak to begin with. even with the front coaxial, one side, and one hull you're only putting down 11.79 dps. That's still worst than the 12.38 on just the axis coaxial and hull.

the 75mm on the churchill also have a somewhat long reload time at 6.56 second. It's actually longer than the reload time on the wehr panther (6.4).

and the grenade is close range, on one of the slowest unit in the entire game. You could slowly crawl up to a pak to grenade it, while eating shell the entire way.

the mk7's firepower is "decent" at best, mediocre at worst.

(using the figure from vipper)

the firing arc of the frontal hull and the side mg doesn't overlap. It's just big enough to provide 320 degree frontal coverage.

You can face the churchill to have three of those weak mg to fire on the same squad, but they will be firing on different individual soldier.

The mg themselves are pretty weak to begin with. even with the front coaxial, one side, and one hull you're only putting down 11.79 dps. That's still worst than the 12.38 on just the axis coaxial and hull.

the 75mm on the churchill also have a somewhat long reload time at 6.56 second. It's actually longer than the reload time on the wehr panther (6.4).

and the grenade is close range, on one of the slowest unit in the entire game. You could slowly crawl up to a pak to grenade it, while eating shell the entire way.

the mk7's firepower is "decent" at best, mediocre at worst.

Which is fine because its there for a long time not a good time. Ya cant have a tank that can bounce some shots, take 9 penetrating hits AND melt infantry. The tech required is anvil. Its a supposed to be a wall you grind the enemy against. Its potent enough to be a threat (so as to draw fire) but not a wonderweapon that all you need to do is build an army of them (like at launch) its a part of your army filling a role.

Which is fine because its there for a long time not a good time. Ya cant have a tank that can bounce some shots, take 9 penetrating hits AND melt infantry. The tech required is anvil. Its a supposed to be a wall you grind the enemy against. Its potent enough to be a threat (so as to draw fire) but not a wonderweapon that all you need to do is build an army of them (like at launch) its a part of your army filling a role.

240 armor is hardly enough for something that's suppose to be a shield. It's not high enough to reliably bounce a good deal of the weapon from the axis.

It's quite literally the end cap unit for the british, it should provide an incentive for the axis to pull out their own big gun as well, not just concentrate fire from pak40 or stug.

190/240 = 79%, which is high enough to consistently penetration with some bounces.

The allies penetrating weapon caps out at around 220 at max range, which against the panther is 68% chance.(220/320 armor).

Even if we ignore doctrine unit (like the elephant and jagtiger), both axis have the panther and the okw have the King tiger. The panther should be enough to solo a churchill.

and the churchill is also slow. It needs the durability to get out and get in.

Removing deflection damage from most infantry handheld AT makes armored units feel much more durable.

One could even move the deflection damage wholesale over to base damage and it wouldn't even be the craziest thing.

240 armor is hardly enough for something that's suppose to be a shield. It's not high enough to reliably bounce a good deal of the weapon from the axis.

It's quite literally the end cap unit for the british, it should provide an incentive for the axis to pull out their own big gun as well, not just concentrate fire from pak40 or stug.

190/240 = 79%, which is high enough to consistently penetration with some bounces.

The allies penetrating weapon caps out at around 220 at max range, which against the panther is 68% chance.(220/320 armor).

Even if we ignore doctrine unit (like the elephant and jagtiger), both axis have the panther and the okw have the King tiger. The panther should be enough to solo a churchill.

and the churchill is also slow. It needs the durability to get out and get in.

Why should it be bouncing units whos sole job is to damage armour? Being able to bounce 20% of backbone AT and STILL able to survive 8 penetrating hits is very tanky. Health is more reliable than armour anyways. (It will ALWAYS take 9 standard damage pens to kill, you are guaranteed that PLUS a 20% chance to bounce paks, meanwhile a panther even with its imcredible armour CAN be killed in 5 shots if RNG says it will.
A dice roll decides if armour works and there are tools to neutralize the advantages of armour. as you mentioned, things like the more expensive panther, or super heavy single purpose AT units (god forbid 260 fuel of AT be effective fighting a tank...) But the health is STILL there. Even with units like the pak 43 dealing 320 damage the churchill STILL takes more shots than a standard tank does vs standard AT..

And you are right, its full tech for brits which is why for 20 fuel more than an okw pays for a p4 you get 6 more armour! Well that and more than 2x the health.

Why should it be bouncing units whos sole job is to damage armour? Being able to bounce 20% of backbone AT and STILL able to survive 8 penetrating hits is very tanky.


Why should it be bouncing units whos sole job is to damage armour? Being able to bounce 20% of backbone AT and STILL able to survive 8 penetrating hits is very tanky. Health is more reliable than armour anyways. (It will ALWAYS take 9 standard damage pens to kill, you are guaranteed that PLUS a 20% chance to bounce paks, meanwhile a panther even with its imcredible armour CAN be killed in 5 shots if RNG says it will.
A dice roll decides if armour works and there are tools to neutralize the advantages of armour. as you mentioned, things like the more expensive panther, or super heavy single purpose AT units (god forbid 260 fuel of AT be effective fighting a tank...) But the health is STILL there. Even with units like the pak 43 dealing 320 damage the churchill STILL takes more shots than a standard tank does vs standard AT..

And you are right, its full tech for brits which is why for 20 fuel more than an okw pays for a p4 you get 6 more armour! Well that and more than 2x the health.

that logic doesn't make sense when the king tiger (375), jagdtiger (525), and the elefant(400) all exist in game, against factions whose main gun typically top out at around 220-260.

Even just the tiger (290) and panther (320) have higher armor than the churchill mk 7.

and it's worth noting that the tiger's 1040 hp means it take 7 shots to kill.

Balance without context is just misleading.

second, higher armor allow the churchill to make shrug off "mid" tier anti-tank weapon more easily. This limit the amount of units that would be a threat to the churchill. Bringing out the heavy hitter like the king tiger means german have to make consideration for those special units (like doctrine choices). That's also where smaller target size come into play.

20% to bounch a shot is a poor chance for a tank that's as slow as a King tiger. The king Tiger itself prove armor do matter.

1280 HP and 320 armor is a result of drawing from experience both using and facing axis armor. Same hp as the King tiger but with the lower armor of the panther. Considering The similarity in speed between the churchill and the king tiger, this make the churchill have similar durability as the king tiger but without the 240 damage doom cannon.

How is a tank with slightly less durability than the king tiger and without the doom cannon unreasonable for the axis to face?

and lastly, the churchill's current price is a result of the mega patch. It was a poor decision considering the churchill is suppose to be an end game unit. You're also ignoring the Manpower cost. This also means that the price is subject to change.

The problem is that osts p5 is in an overpriced tier that offers no fancy pants passive bonuses or upgrades just for getting there. They should be forced into that to face a stock unit. You keep saying the allies pens are topped at 220/260 like thats some major draw back but you are ingnoring that those units are in their STOCK line up. You want a 525 armoured death cannon? Ok but ONLY with the 1 doctrine limiting support options and its going to be limited to 1 meaning if the match drags on you cant pump out an army of impenetrable steel death.

YOU SHOULDNT NEED A DOCTRINAL ANSWER TO A NON DOC UNIT

This is why allied TDs have pens all above 200. Axis stock TDs dont get to those levels because they dont have the need to and adding a 320 armoured tank shifts the balance. Keep in mind axis "TDs" ontop of lacking the pen of allied TDs, also lack the range (jp4 has 60 range, but has even less pen, 175 at max iirc, meaning only a 70% chance to pen the CURRENT churchill. Why should it fall to 54% chance to pen while exists the non doc firefly for brits to counter 320 armour panthers and the like?)

So to reiterate, a slightly squishier KT without the cannon would be an issue because the axis nondoc roster isnt designed around facing. Introducing relatively high opposing armour is a MASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIVE balance changes (remember the KT? the tank that increased allied TD pen across the board?)
Besides, the bloody kv-1 can be a tough little number, i cant imagine a non doc version with more armour and more health...

that logic doesn't make sense when the king tiger (375), jagdtiger (525), and the elefant(400) all exist in game, against factions whose main gun typically top out at around 220-260.

Even just the tiger (290) and panther (320) have higher armor than the churchill mk 7.

and it's worth noting that the tiger's 1040 hp means it take 7 shots to kill.

Balance without context is just misleading.
...

1) You are talking about frontal/side armor. Churchill currently has higher rear/side armor. Actually an Ostheer PzIV 4 parked behind a Churchill has less change to penetrate it than Churchill has to penetrate it frontally.

2) The performance of Panther vs Churchill is not actually good. It an antitank units more expensive than Churchill yet according to calculation before the patch (nwo it should perform a bit better) Panther, OST 67.75 - 90.25 it took more than 1 minute to kill it, with the stug doing allot better.

3) The units you mention are all limited to 1 Churchill is not. I used the unit when it was tougher to kill (and I guess you did also) and facing Churchill spam was not really fun to play against.

The unit could have its utility increased or could have its synergy with infantry increased or even have different vet bonuses but its starting stats seem to be ok.

(and the KV-1 damage reduction model should be either followed by other "heavy infantry tanks" or be removed)

We seen that a Churchill eats a panther in a 1v1....

so no...churchhill is not weak.

We seen that a Churchill eats a panther in a 1v1....

so no...churchhill is not weak.

What happen on your drug trips is not really a proof of anything.

Churchill would Need to pen most of ist shots and that is unlikely to happen(possible, but so is winning with T70 against P4), unless you park panther rear armor to chrchils front on Close range.