Su-76

when the stug was being spammed late game - Was considered OP and got Nerfed

Su76 getting spammed late game - Its okay l2p issue

The bias is real on this forum, if the mod team has any consistency, i expect them to nerf the su76 for the same god damn reasons they nerfed the stug.

The difference between su-76 and stug is similar to the difference between zis3 and pak40. In both cases the soviet unit can have the additional AI capability by using the barrage, but the german one is much, much better in its primary role - AT.

this is where your wrong mate, to say the stug somehow is better then su76 and AT is ridiculous, when the su76 has 60 range.

this is where your wrong mate, to say the stug somehow is better then su76 and AT is ridiculous, when the su76 has 60 range.

The difference in dps, effecting from damage per shot and effective reload, is really huge. As far as I know, when it comes to dps, only pak43 can pump out more damage than stug. If you think that su76 can even remotely compete with stug in that regard, you really must be using your AT wrong.

Do mind that I didn't say stug is a hard counter to su-76. It would be one if it had 60 range but it doesn't and the safety of allied TDs is one of the reasons, becouse none of them can compete with stug once it is in range. Stug is a far superior tank destroyer than su76, but it is only a soft counter to su76 - that is the way the game was designed. Otherwise there would be no point to ever build a su76.

The difference in dps, effecting from damage per shot and effective reload, is really huge. As far as I know, when it comes to dps, only pak43 can pump out more damage than stug. If you think that su76 can even remotely compete with stug in that regard, you really must be using your AT wrong.

Do mind that I didn't say stug is a hard counter to su-76. It would be one if it had 60 range but it doesn't and that is one of the reasons. It is a far superior tank destroyer, but it is only a soft counter to su76 - that is the way the game was designed. Otherwise there would be no point to ever build a su76.

Ok, what do u think is the hard counter for SU76?
Im always talking bout MORE than 2 SU76, nobody builds just one of them.

Ok, what do u think is the hard counter for SU76?
Im always talking bout MORE than 2 SU76, nobody builds just one of them.

Pak wall is a really good counter that comes early. One pak is not a hard counter becouse of barrage, but more of them, well positioned and spaced out, definitely are. For additional buff you can support your pak wall with reinforcement ht or command tank. Other hard counters come later, as they should in a well designed rts. These are generally tanks with either better range or armour that su-76 has hard time to crack. So the best counters are obviously JT, Ele, pak43, but if you dont have the commander, panthers should work as well. If you find panther to have too little DPS you can always use its armour to lead the charge and support it with some stugs. If you manage to catch su76 without infantry support, or you just managed to retreat his blob, then all kinds of shrecks and other handheld AT that you may find is really good vs su76 - it can barrage only once so it has no chance against moving infantry. And last but definitely not the least, the mighty stuka AT support.

As you can see, there is plenty of options.

Do also mind that su76 without su85 or infantry support has no spotting so effectively cant use its 60 range. If you happen to find a situation when they suffer from that, you can close in with the stug, or more than one if they have a lot of su76s, and easily kill it as well. I don't count it as hard counter as it is situational but it often works really well - you just need to find the moment.

...
Do also mind that su76 without su85 or infantry support has no spotting so effectively cant use its 60 range...

That is is incorrect.

The vet 1 ability "tracking" increases the sight to around 49 and provides mini information to range 70, allowing the unit to barrage with more accuracy and see in the FOW. Apart from that many soviet units can deploy flares making easy foe the unit to spot without placing the spotter in harms way.

I was almost under the impression that one of my alts was let loose by some hacker. But I see it is not the case.

#FreeMeFromMyOwnTyrrany

Just did a load of CheatMod testing on this. While I still don't care for the OP's attitude and tone I can understand their frustration now. Five SU-76s are very, very strong against the entire Ostheer vehicle arsenal.

I set up the following experiment. I found an area of open terrain on the Moscow Outskirts map. I turned Fog of War off so that every vehicle could fire at maximum range. I set up a line of enemy controlled SU-76s, then attacked them from the front with varying combinations of Ostheer vehicles.

My discovery was thus: if you charge five spotted for SU-76s over open ground with less than 375 fuel worth of vehicles (the price of five SU-76s) you will lose. Four StuGs? Dead. Two Panthers? Oblitered. Elefant? Annihilated. To beat the SU-76s in their element required more than the 375 fuel the SU-76s cost. It wasn't possible to play their game and come out on top.

Why is a swarm of SU-76s so powerful? The two obvious answers are range and penetration. The SU-76 can penetrate the frontal armor of an Elefant and its greater range means it gets to shoot at approaching vehicles when they can't fire back and those vehicles often get movement penalties when they do return fire.

Vehicle pathing also works against attacking armour. If you attack the SU-76 position with a group of vehicles they like to form a line. This plays straight into the SU-76's hands: they can kill the vehicle at the front before the vehicles at the back can fire and then repeat this for the next vehicle. The vehicles need to be commanded individually to prevent this suicide conga, adding an extra micro burden to the attacker.

The last two strengths of the swarm suprisingly enough come from the SU-76's weaknesses. The low armour of the SU-76 works in its favour. Late game armour like Panthers pay for their high penetration (they'd cost less if their penetration was lower) but get no value from it against paper thin SU-76 armour. The low health of the SU-76 is also an unexpected strength in numbers: any damage in excess of the SU-76 isn't transferred to another and is wasted, turning the slow firing high damage guns of the Axis tanks into a disadvantage. I call this their "overkill advantage."

So how can we turn this knowledge to our advantage?

• Don't engage them on their terms: if you attack an equal fuel investment of SU-76s over open ground with spotters for the SU-76s in place you'll lose.
  
• Use smoke. Smoke proved invaluable in testing: by blocking their line of sight you can close in without being fired on. If your StuGs can close to firing range without being fired on and can avoid moving more than the SU-76s they've got a good chance of winning. In addition to covering your advance you can use smoke to save your wounded vehicles and split the SU-76 pack up. The swarm is much less powerful when you fight it one or two at a time.
  
• Defeat them in detail. Every SU-76 you blind with smoke is less firepower the pack contributes to the fight. Invoke Lanchester's Law to your advantage.
  
• Try to fight the SU-76s with a similar number of vehicles. More guns means a lesser overkill advantage for the SU-76s and a greater overkill advantage for you. I found Pumas and StuGs to be the most effective options.
  
• Use infantry anti-tank whereever possible. Two Panzergrenadier squads will beat five SU-76s in isolation and are very useful in an actual engagement. Panzerfaust equipped troops are also very useful: if you can finish off a wounded SU-76 with a Panzerfaust you're not going to waste tank shell damage on overkilling it.

So a tiger takes 9 shots fro su76 and ur complaining ? 9 shots lol with 3 shots each means u have more than enough time to react .
it's a l2p issue, and StugG is wayyyyyyyy better than a su76 btw , the stun shot is awesome.

So a tiger takes 9 shots fro su76 and ur complaining ? 9 shots lol with 3 shots each means u have more than enough time to react .
it's a l2p issue, and StugG is wayyyyyyyy better than a su76 btw , the stun shot is awesome.

Iirc an su76 has what we in the business call shit armour. A 222 is a threat and massed su76 are a stuka loiters wet wet dream. When the enemy might bring an army of tissue paper be sure to have access to a hose

So a tiger takes 9 shots fro su76 and ur complaining ? 9 shots lol with 3 shots each means u have more than enough time to react .
it's a l2p issue, and StugG is wayyyyyyyy better than a su76 btw , the stun shot is awesome.

Lol, u read what u write?

5 SU76 kill the tiger without problems, so what?
L2P vs unbalanced spam?
Why did they nerf the stug, it had same abilities, but everybody moaned around and then it got useless vs its opponent at same tech level.

The stug was much more durable, having more armour and more health. Less range for sure, but more forgiving against everything being able to bounce some shots and tank a whole shot more. Plus TWP in a stug pack meant nothing was safe. You can kill an su7y with a 222 however you would be hard pressed to kill a stug with a 30 fuel investment, even if hellen keller was controlling the stugs

Man, you know there is some serious salt involved when Soviet sniper flares gets dropped as an example of something that needs balanced.

The stug was much more durable, having more armour and more health. Less range for sure, but more forgiving against everything being able to bounce some shots and tank a whole shot more. Plus TWP in a stug pack meant nothing was safe. You can kill an su7y with a 222 however you would be hard pressed to kill a stug with a 30 fuel investment, even if hellen keller was controlling the stugs

STUG only has 140 (with 30% at vet 2) armour, against what guns is this high armour?

STUG only has 140 (with 30% at vet 2) armour, against what guns is this high armour?

*Looks at all allied medium tanks*
To put into perspective- the stug has a chance to bounce a t34 at point blank, but the su76 will NOT bounce a t34 at max range (let alone a panzer 4)

Unless of youre you are going to complain that a 90 fuel t3 isnt durable enough when facing down full tech TDs that are all minimum 50% more expensive. In which case how many panther shells is the su76 going to bounce? Or pak43 shells? Or JP4 shells? HELL an su76 is only going to bounce 1 in 2 222 shells and the stug can bounce full blown tank shells at max range almost the same amount of times (80 pen at max for t34/140 armour) falling to 1/3 with vet. What the fuck do you expect? A jp4 clone?

If one compares the stug with Su-76 one has to keep in mind that Stug IS an OP unit, thus if the Su-76 performance is close to the stug that would mean the Su-76 is also OP.

Imo Su-76 is at least as cost efficient as the stug if not more for number of reasons:

It is cheaper than the Stug while fighting the more expensive PzIVs

It has more utility than Stug since it can barrage and provide Los/battlefield intelligence.

It has low XP value gain veterancy very fast.

As for the issues with it I have explain it in a previous post in this thread.

If one compares the stug with Su-76 one has to keep in mind that Stug IS an OP unit, thus if the Su-76 performance is close to the stug that would mean the Su-76 is also OP.

Imo Su-76 is at least as cost efficient as the stug if not more for number of reasons:

It is cheaper than the Stug while fighting the more expensive PzIVs

It has more utility than Stug since it can barrage and provide Los/battlefield intelligence.

It has low XP value gain veterancy very fast.

As for the issues with it I have explain it in a previous post in this thread.

It is quite commonly agreed that all it takes to ballance the stug is increasing its population. Maybe su76 needs the same so it cant be spammed that efficiently.

That doesn't make OP claiming that stug should also have the barrage if su76 can have it any less ridiculous though.

It is quite commonly agreed that all it takes to ballance the stug is increasing its population. Maybe su76 needs the same so it cant be spammed that efficiently.

That doesn't make OP claiming that stug should also have the barrage if su76 can have it any less ridiculous though.

Generally I do not agree with OP.

I do believe that SU-76 has issues thou, and I have pointed out in a previous post in this thread.

I don't really see how can one increase the pop of the stug when T-34/76 has a pop of 10 and Su-85 of 12 thou.

The stug was much more durable, having more armour and more health. Less range for sure, but more forgiving against everything being able to bounce some shots and tank a whole shot more. Plus TWP in a stug pack meant nothing was safe. You can kill an su7y with a 222 however you would be hard pressed to kill a stug with a 30 fuel investment, even if hellen keller was controlling the stugs

Which idiot loses a 60 range TD to a 222?

I don't really see how can one increase the pop of the stug when T-34/76 has a pop of 10 and Su-85 of 12 thou.

That is exactly the reason why you can. T-34 has same price tag as stug but more pop. Why would that be considered right? Su-85 might be a little low at 12 but I don't think it is the matter to discuss in this thread.

For example the m10 is at 10 pop and it is similiar in performance and cost to stug. (it does not have the dps of the stug but has the crush and turret)

Another thing is that su-76 also has similar price tag to T-34 (although its cheaper than both t-34 and stug) and 8 pop is also pretty low for it.

That said I would be for either changing both stug and su-76 from 8 to 9, or su76 to 9 and stug to 10.