instead of adding a fifth man to grenadier

Recrew team weapons @ 2 members, not 3. 3 made sense when all team weapons had a squad size of 3 in coh1.

Suddenly ostheer has much better chances to recrew it's team weapons after an engagement.

the panther? stug?

I dont like you...but i lol'd

I dont like you...but i lol'd

was a seriuos question^^

This is exactly why it would be OP. Grenadiers do not lose their base dps with model drops when they are equiped with LMG. Having a 5th men means their main source of DPS last longer thus put them at the same level than Tommy/dual Bren or Riflemen/dual BAR while costing 240 and 60 munition and having superior support units around them and late game superior armor.
Grenadier problem is the high potentiality of 4men squad wipe on the late game. That's a problem damage design in COh2. Grenadiers were 4men squads on COH1 facing 6men squads rifle and squad wipe has never been such an issue, even knight cross holders were 3men squad and single shot squad wipe wasn't that much an issue, it could happen but that was pure bad luck. Here on COh2, units have been design for that purpose, like the brumbar, churchill Avre or Sturmtiger...

Grenadier do not need to be versatile, versatility is on T1 and T2 units combined arms.

nah..it is not like that the mg shredd infantery like double brens/ vickers...

the dmg from the lmg is ok..but grens are not like a glas canon...their dmg overall is meh...when you see that the must stay and must deal with 6 model squads

look the arranged vids where grens will be killed by nearly all infantery with upgrades

Double bar rifles/bren IS and lmg grens don't lose their slot_item dps until they've lost their 4th man.

Not so great for grens or unbolstered IS.

Paratroopers can still double lmg too.

The bug that allows you to double up lmg42 and lmgs is unfortunately still ingame though.

It needs to be decided what role Grens play in the Ostheer faction. Are they meant to hold the line while their support weapons do most of the work? Are they meant to be able to go toe to toe with other factions mainline infantry? Are they meant for recrewing weapons if shit hits the fan?

Problem as it stands is they are in a very strange place. They cost a lot to reinforce, yet are the most likely to take the brunt of an assault. They are actually pretty exceptional early game at fighting allied infantry, then just get outscaled super hard. They have a hard time recrewing weapons because of their squad size.

It's why people like ostruppen. Can soak frontline damage and reinforce crew weapons. They have a role. Before any choices are made Grens need to have their role defined. Then you fine tune them to that role. Honestly? 5th man is kind of a poor idea. Probably be best to retool pioneer dps and make them 5 man to emphasize recrewing weapons. Then making grens hardier by adjusting their received accuracy veterancy (or starting RA).

Ost is the one army that is not really intended to have its main inf squad spammed, they are squishy and muni hungry when spammed.

Grens should be supporting team weapons, which Ost has good options for. This is why they have the best snare.

To get around low squad size for recrewing, you should really be using a HT or bunker.

Not that this helps grenadiers, but I feel like I'm having a hard time repairing and recrewing team weapons beyond mid game, so maybe unlock 5th pio squad member when all tiers are built? Just another small and completely unrelated thing: Have repair stations purchasable by brits, sov and ost in t4 when all tech structures have been built (like mechanized engineers from okw).

What about assigning a 5th man in form of an officer to the squad as an upgrade like the LMG42 that can be unlocked once T3 is researched for 80 mun? He could maybe add a passive ability to give higher line of sight while being in green cover (you know binaculars and shit) while being armed with a pistol only and of course not receiving andy upgrades like G43 or LMG42.

The high cost will then prevent to make it a no brainer upgrade because Ost is already muni starved and the Luger pistol of the officer won't boost the squads DPS at all. The higher LOS would also help Ost's defensive playstyle. Also the squad won't receive the 5th man while on the battlefield, but it has to 'get' the 5th guy from a base structure like Brits.

This solution will make Grens durable in the mid to late game while not overpowering Ost with a too strong Gren/MG42 combo.

normal ost infantry squad being limited to 4 men is part of their aesthetic identity. It should not be changed (ost and ass gren being special case).

Yes, that aesthetic identity make them extremely fragile, which is why I suggest the HP upgrade. the wehr in COH1 get away from the lower squad size since there's variable HP, but raw HP in coh2 are currently standardized at 80.

Recrew team weapons @ 2 members, not 3. 3 made sense when all team weapons had a squad size of 3 in coh1.

Suddenly ostheer has much better chances to recrew it's team weapons after an engagement.

this would be a sensible change.

lets compare the overall HP from they infanterys, their armor and model size

....have someone a good table or something?


i guess grens have in most cases the lowest stats. (sum HP/armor)

but they are not cheap...they are very expansive for their performanche and wiping potencial

All infantry have 80 health. Ostruppen to obers. Snipers are exceptions: OST sniper has 82 health, soviet sniper team members have 64 health.

Only shock troops have armor, which I think is at 1.5, which I don't think deflects anything effectively.

The received accuracy modifier is mainly used for infantry durability, but this only affects small arms fire. Grens have never had issues vs small arms except for when it was on the supermandos of old or 200man RE squads.

All infantry have 80 health. Ostruppen to obers. Snipers are exceptions: OST sniper has 82 health, soviet sniper team members have 64 health.

Only shock troops have armor, which I think is at 1.5, which I don't think deflects anything effectively.

The received accuracy modifier is mainly used for infantry durability, but this only affects small arms fire. Grens have never had issues vs small arms except for when it was on the supermandos of old or 200man RE squads.

sum:

4x80 = 320HP
5x80 = 400HP
6x80 = 480HP
all 4model squads have 180 HP less than 6model squads...

and then we can read that 2hp more pro model would be totally OP...

Grens should be supporting team weapons, which Ost has good options for. This is why they have the best snare.

To get around low squad size for recrewing, you should really be using a HT or bunker.

None of this makes sense. They are supposed to support their support weapons, but get wiped in the blink of an eye due to their low squad sizes. They fight 5 to 6 men squads, of whom most get double lmg upgrades, whilst grens got this taken away at one point. This is again not a very sturdy support role.

They are supposed to support their support weapons, but have a low squad size which means they can't effective support their entire support weapon system when one of the support weapons gets decrewed...

Now don't get me wrong, grenadiers aren't horrible. But their roles are wonky and, if I might say so, quite frankly; counter intuitive.

Edit: as for the suggestion to add a fifth man or an hp buff, I think none of these will solve the issue. The grenadier issue reflects a general issue with CoH2, where other designs are far more superior to the outdated design of vanilla factions. Ostheer has the hardest case of what I call: "General outdatism". Where the Soviet faction could be dealt with by buffing certain units, making the entire roster sort of more effective and the corner stones solid, the Ostheer faction would require an entire redesign. Not going to happen lol.

sum:

4x80 = 320HP
5x80 = 400HP
6x80 = 480HP
all 4model squads have 180 HP less than 6model squads...

and then we can read that 2hp more pro model would be totally OP...

And that's the damage to wipe the squad. The amount of damage to reduce the squad to the point of retreat or unable to recrew a weapon without wiping the squad is even more pronounced a difference.

Does the command tank give them more resistances to explosions?

Does the command tank give them more resistances to explosions?

Yes, it gives damage reduction.

In Company of Heroes 1 Infantry Models had varied health pools between 55 to 70 HP per model.

COH1 US Rifleman : 6 Man Squad 55 HP Per Model, Total HP 330
COH1 Whermacht VolksGrenadier: 5 Man Squad 60 HP Per Model, Total HP 300
COH1 British Inf Section : 5 Man Squad 65 HP Per Model, Total HP 325
COH1 PE Panzer Gren : 4 Man Squad 55 HP Per Model, Total HP 220


In Company of Heroes 2 Infantry Models have 80 HP except for snipers.

COH2 Russian Conscripts : 6 Man Squad 80 HP Per Model, Total HP 480
COH2 Whermact Grenadiers : 4 Man Squad 80 HP Per Model, Total HP 320
COH2 British Inf.Section : 5 Man Squad 80 HP Per Model, Total HP 400
COH2 OKW Volksgrenadier : 5 Man Squad 80 HP Per Model, Total HP 400

The biggest issue with Company of Heroes 2 is that they took a lazy approach to design. Company of Heroes 1 makes use of Unit Target Tables. So if a particular unit was struggling in fulfilling its role, it could be buffed against certain units as opposed to general power increase or decrease.

For Example, in Company of Heroes 2, people complained that OKW LEIG sucked and didn't perform its role. LEIG got buffed so that it could do its role well but had the unintended consequence of becoming long range artillery snipers and thus was spammed in every game. Rather than a general increase in the units overall performance, it should have been buffed against ONLY the units it was meant to counter (Which was Maxim Spam at the time)

If Company of Heroes 2 is to become a truly balanced game, it needs to focus on Unit Roles and implement target tables again.

As for the issue with Grenadiers, the whole purpose of a Veterancy System in the game is to promote unit preservation and reward good choices in the way of additional unit power by keeping the unit alive. This fundamental system is broken when a random mortar can 1 shot an entire squad without any way to react on your part.

As someone suggested before one solution would be to increase the base health of the Grenadier models. This would have the unintended consequence of buffing team weapons when crewed by Grenadiers (Imagine an MG42 with 90 HP Models as opposed to 80)

The best course of action here would be to modify the weapon tables for all mortars and artillery and put in a damage penalty vs Grenadiers only so that they can still do significant damage but not entirely wipe squads due to random RNG. (Company of Heroes 1 had this)

I wonder how many people are aware that pioneers were given longer sight range after WFA to buff them supporting and recrewing mgs...

The sight range increase on a pio crewed mg is so crucial.

sum:

4x80 = 320HP
5x80 = 400HP
6x80 = 480HP
all 4model squads have 180 HP less than 6model squads...

and then we can read that 2hp more pro model would be totally OP...

That's raw HP pool against AoE. You then have to account for: target size, popcap, raw DPS performance, utility, etc. And finally what their design is on the faction they are in and how they play against each other.

The 2HP could be a late game proposition but the reason that a +2HP is totally OP, specially early on, is because anyone who has a minimum amount of memory remembers the +3% HP bulletins and how they completely change the early game engagements.
It's not just +2HP because the performance of a unit is the same either it is on 1 HP or full health.
-Against 16dmg per shot, it survives an extra shot from 5 to 6 (basically it's a +20% HP)
-Against 12 (current Conscript) it wouldn't change the dynamic.
-Against 10, it goes from 8-9 (12,5%)
-Against 8, it's 10%.

Anything above 80HP means your model survives a direct hit of a mortar shell, a rocket artillery or a grenade to the face. In a game where man power bleed is king, this means you survive way more engagements been able to go back to base and heal.

snip

The best course of action here would be to modify the weapon tables for all mortars and artillery and put in a damage penalty vs Grenadiers only so that they can still do significant damage but not entirely wipe squads due to random RNG. (Company of Heroes 1 had this)

And this is one of the reasons Devs had issue making patches for the game. If one is to be lazy and have a realistic expectation of what is possible to implement, i'll go with a BP3 +2HP ONLY AFTER testing what happens when BAR long range DPS is reduced and possible double bren removed. Give utility to 120mm and reduce AA range to 80 and now people have absolutely no reason to complain whatsoever besides been unable to blame their own faults.

I wonder how many people are aware that pioneers were given longer sight range after WFA to buff them supporting and recrewing mgs...

The sight range increase on a pio crewed mg is so crucial.

5man pios on BP3...or recrewing with 2 and having better reinforcements tools could go a long way on improving OH.

For ex: reducing the bunker cost to 50MP and moving part of the cost to it's upgrades. Reinforcement bunker could now be 25/50MP and it's munition cost (honestly i can't remember someone using it), medic bunker could go to 75/100 and MG bunker remaining the same as now. Similar thought with 251 HT, moving part of it's cost to the flamer upgrade.