Relic close to shutting down - not profitable

Incorrect

You are American, talk about cognitive bias. Now I am intrigued however. How did my statement become incorrect?

After the last patch that turned an unbalanced but playable game into an unbalanced but unplayable game (The main reason is the response of units: units execute commands with a huge delay, do what they did not order,
path finding worsening in technique / infantry, the infantry began to stretch the formation, make a step forward then it runs in the opposite direction) I just want one thing - widened tools for moding , to create their own infantry / weapons / technology. In the modes the game is still playable.

That while we have a bigger market of people playing games compared to 10 years ago, classic RTS are taking an even smaller share of the market and less and less sequels have been relevant or new titles released with success compared to the last 10/15 years.

Read slow, and careful again. I'm talking about traditional REAL TIME strategy PvP games. HoI4, Civilization, Europa Universalis, Stellaris, Total War (with the exception of Arena), don't fall into this category. Guess what? They are the ones with the biggest sales and player retention (DLC targets).

From the 90s to 2010s, it was the best time for RTS. From 2013 onwards it has been a downfall. We talk about CoH2 having a relative small playerbase for automatch "balance matchmaking" with it having around 5K players (which in general less than half are looking for a game). Not a single title has been close to having these numbers. I'll give a memorable mention to Men of War, that while been basically an ARMA of the RTS, it was a success for what it is. A really niche game which manages to retain a healthy playerbase.

Sequels and spiritual successors of many gems from the 90s/00s had rough releases, didn't come close to expectatives or basically shut down, which basically kills the saga or put it on a really long stasis with no hope for a new release soon. C&C (Tiberium, Red Alert n Generals), Total Annihilation, Homeworld (kinda), Halo Wars (for it's IP name is was not even close), recent DoW3. It would all be fine if other titles would had taken the lead. I've seen hype for ex-Westwood's Greygoo or Steel Division. Look at how they are now.

There's nothing in the incoming future. The only 2 relevant titles are AoE4 and IMO Iron Harvest and those are at least pushed to 2019

This nitpicking over the certain types of RTS games is stupid, its like watching a bunch of hardcore libertarians argue over the legitimacy of drivers licenses.

A:"No man COH isn't a real RTS, there's no resource harvesting."
B: "Oh yeah it is man you just have to fight for them, but you know what's not an RTS...that Wargame series. It doesn't even have base building ffs"
C: "No bro its totally a RTS, but those world domination games aren't because you control armies instead of soldiers"
D: "But they are RTS because the clock advances in real time. Everything strategy game is RTS except for those MOBA games because....reasons"

Why do you care what the market share is like? COH2 came out after your golden age of RTS games and it has a playerbase close in size to COH1 even though it really came up short on expectations. More people play PC now because its more accessible and they want to play CSGO, PUBG, Battlefield, open world survival, tactical shooters, etc. Those are people that never had an interest in RTS to begin with, its not like the RTS core fanbase disappeared. There hasn't been any great broad appeal strategy games that fit your narrow definition of what strategy games should be, so they found the strategy elsewhere. If AoE4 is actually really good, it will sell accordingly. I'm not saying it will take PC gaming by storm and win over new converts to the genre, but it won't flop either (assuming the windows store requirement doesn't kill sales).

You are American, talk about cognitive bias. Now I am intrigued however. How did my statement become incorrect?

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That's cute. Coming next: gender pronouns

This nitpicking over the certain types of RTS games is stupid, its like watching a bunch of hardcore libertarians argue over the legitimacy of drivers licenses.

A:"No man COH isn't a real RTS, there's no resource harvesting."
B: "Oh yeah it is man you just have to fight for them, but you know what's not an RTS...that Wargame series. It doesn't even have base building ffs"
C: "No bro its totally a RTS, but those world domination games aren't because you control armies instead of soldiers"
D: "But they are RTS because the clock advances in real time. Everything strategy game is RTS except for those MOBA games because....reasons"

Why do you care what the market share is like? COH2 came out after your golden age of RTS games and it has a playerbase close in size to COH1 even though it really came up short on expectations. More people play PC now because its more accessible and they want to play CSGO, PUBG, Battlefield, open world survival, tactical shooters, etc. Those are people that never had an interest in RTS to begin with, its not like the RTS core fanbase disappeared. There hasn't been any broad appeal strategy games that fit your narrow definition of what strategy games should be, so they found the strategy elsewhere. If AoE4 is actually really good, it will sell accordingly. I'm not saying it will take PC gaming by storm and win over new converts to the genre, but it won't flop either (assuming the windows store requirement doesn't kill sales).


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That's cute. Coming next: gender pronouns

Cute. If I recall correctly, the laws that were introduced post 9/11 allow your government to imprison you without any given reason and without any warning based on the accusation of 'terrorism' (without proof given mind you). Also, all of your media is owned by 6 companies. Freedom of speech my ass.

Now you might come and wave your first amendment in my face all you want lol, but you can't deny the fact that your media is probably the worst in the world when it comes to being state tools and spreading misinformation and fueling hate amongst its people. The fact that 6 companies own all of the media isn't helping here either.

Freedom of speech my ass.

Cute. If I recall correctly, the laws that were introduced post 9/11 allow your government to imprison you without any given reason and without any warning based on the accusation of 'terrorism' (without proof given mind you).

You recalled incorrectly, but even if you were right that would be a 4th amendment issue not 1st.

Also, all of your media is owned by 6 companies. Freedom of speech my ass.

Not a freedom of speech issue either, you have to start your own company same as you have to buy your own gun. You going to explain how we have no gun rights either?

If you want to keep lecturing how Netherlands is GOAT on freedom, make some scrap yard post.

Uh, freedom of market != freedom of speech.

ibinvis

I have some pretty valuable opinions here, I have a history of criticising Relic when they have needed to be (pay2win DLC etc.) - but have also had one of the closest working relationships with Relic since late 2015 onward. For example I'm hosting their Make War Not Love event on the 16th, and hosted their staff tournament stream - read into that what you will... (Relic shill/ sellout etc.)

So in the past few years I have experienced the changes first hand - from everything I've seen at the moment we have more reasons to be positive than ever. Especially relative to 2012 - 2015.

Relic negativity right now is based upon DoWIII being a huge misstep and failure, it has nothing to do with Age of Empires 4 for which they are the art and design studio and have every chance of knocking out of the park. Mostly because its a completely separate and new entity for them and they're working closely with Microsoft. Nor does it have anything to do with "the future of the Company of Heroes franchise" which based upon a game series that is very healthy and active despite its age, and is their bread and butter.

True drama, or panic stations would have been in late 2012 when there nearly wasn't a CoH2 when THQ went bust, not now.

That said you do have to believe that Relic probably are 'one bad game away from closure' but then again that would probably represent half of medium sized developers.

You can tell by their hiring policies at the moment that they are replacing a lot of the management structure or moving people around. So perhaps the Glassdoor criticisms will be old hat in time.

So yeah, "meh", would be my overall tl;dr from this thread.

This nitpicking over the certain types of RTS games is stupid, its like watching a bunch of hardcore libertarians argue over the legitimacy of drivers licenses.

A:"No man COH isn't a real RTS, there's no resource harvesting."
B: "Oh yeah it is man you just have to fight for them, but you know what's not an RTS...that Wargame series. It doesn't even have base building ffs"
C: "No bro its totally a RTS, but those world domination games aren't because you control armies instead of soldiers"
D: "But they are RTS because the clock advances in real time. Everything strategy game is RTS except for those MOBA games because....reasons"

Why do you care what the market share is like? COH2 came out after your golden age of RTS games and it has a playerbase close in size to COH1 even though it really came up short on expectations. More people play PC now because its more accessible and they want to play CSGO, PUBG, Battlefield, open world survival, tactical shooters, etc. Those are people that never had an interest in RTS to begin with, its not like the RTS core fanbase disappeared. There hasn't been any great broad appeal strategy games that fit your narrow definition of what strategy games should be, so they found the strategy elsewhere. If AoE4 is actually really good, it will sell accordingly. I'm not saying it will take PC gaming by storm and win over new converts to the genre, but it won't flop either (assuming the windows store requirement doesn't kill sales).

Nobody is nitpicking, you are just flat out being wrong about game genres. It isn't about base-building vs call-ins, your strawman collapses right there. Using strategy-games is a really stupid way to describe what you mean, because MTG, CSGO and LOL are strategy games. The only way to discuss strategy games is to break them into smaller categories.

There is no strategy games playerbase, you will never sell Starcraft to 4X players. Civilization playerbase does not give a shit about RTS games. Civilization BE is a completely different game from Starcraft as far as game mechanics go.

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I guess it's too hard for you to differenciate that there is too many genres on STRATEGY games. If i say i refer to strategy games i can be talking about RTS or RTT (real time tactics), turn based, grand strategy (HoI) or city building (Anno/Skylines). Guess what, MOBAs ARE strategy games, more focused on the action part (ARTS). You have MMORTS (Clash of clans) or Tower defense games. Finally even artillery (Worms) games are considered inside of the strategy genre.

The majority of the people who played RTS on the 90/00 had been basically absorbed by the MOBA genre (DOTA, LOL, SMITE, HOTS). The ones closer to RTS not something like Battlerite. Not talking about the hardcore players but more on the "casual" side.

I'll give it a clear comparison in another popular genre (FPS).
We have Quake. Skill base, 1v1 arena base FPS. Take a look on how the genre was 20 years ago and how it's now.
Team Fortress had basically the monopoly on the genre and then Overwatch comes and exponentially increases it, sprouting several simil games (Paladins).
Right now we have king of the hill games (PUBG/Fortnite).
Maybe in the next 10 years, simulation VR like games are the next boom.

Why do i care about sales? Because this means sequels, more, better, deeper after release content. Support. Patches. Features. I think no one expect Relic to release as much content for DoW3 as they did with CoH2. Think about the amount of things we would have, if we had a fifth of the SC2 playerbase.

About AoE4. I'll say that just by it's name, it's gonna sell millions but it's never gonna be a market game changer due to W10 way more than Window store. More than half the users on steam are not using W10. "Forcing" people to upgrade will only serve MS, not Relic/Sega. Having a dedicated platform for different games is no unusual practice nowadays. It's just another "icon".

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It's practically IMPOSSIBLE for Relic to screw AoE4, sale-wise at least, and therefore closing. At most, it could be a huge flop or not as expected numbers and there been a huge restructure.

The only way i could see this failing is by changing it's name to Era of Kingdoms and them releasing a product closer to AoE 3 with P2W cards and xp system than them releasing a sucessor of AoE2. Basically committing the same errors from the past.

Developer: Age of Empires 3 Was a “Huge Mistake”

Bruce Shelley, founder of series creator Ensemble Studios, explained that the developer had tried too hard to reinvent the series and broken the game in the process.

"With Age of Empires 3 we tried all of these new ideas," he said. "I think it was a huge mistake."

"We wanted to create something that was 30 per cent the same, 30 per cent borrowed and 30 per cent innovative. I think we tried to do too much."

You recalled incorrectly, but even if you were right that would be a 4th amendment issue not 1st.

You do understand that the laws I described have the right to detain you on the basis of nothing just because the government sees you as a threat to the status quo? As I said, you can flap around the 1st amendment or the 4th. It doesn't matter. If they want you to disappear based on your 'freedom of speech', you will lol. You won't even make it to a courtroom. Now I know this isn't on the mainstream news, but you realize that in a courtroom (if you actually make it there before they snatch you away lol), you are in a different law regulated area. Ever noticed how the flag in the State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes? Anyone with any knowledge about this knows that the Yellow Fringed Flag is the 'Law of Admiralty' Flag. The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of any court, and is not recognized by any nation on this earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Good luck with those amendments there

Not a freedom of speech issue either, you have to start your own company same as you have to buy your own gun. You going to explain how we have no gun rights either?

What does this have to do with the point I brought up? You do understand that the laws I described have the right to detain you on the basis of nothing just because the government sees you as a threat to the status quo? That includes voicing your opinion. Now I hear you think; No way! That would be all over the news. Well, isn't it a coincidence that these are all owned by 6 companies with pretty much the same board

If you want to keep lecturing how Netherlands is GOAT on freedom, make some scrap yard post.

I quite frankly don't think the Netherlands is the GOAT of freedom, for the same band rules here that rules the US. However, the police state that you have over there, isn't quite that developed here.

Can we quit with the off topic politics although the op is partly guilty by bringing political correctness into the otherwise interesting and detailed posts

I'm honestly surprised they've lasted this long...

Nobody is nitpicking, you are just flat out being wrong about game genres. It isn't about base-building vs call-ins, your strawman collapses right there. Using strategy-games is a really stupid way to describe what you mean, because MTG, CSGO and LOL are strategy games. The only way to discuss strategy games is to break them into smaller categories.

There is no strategy games playerbase, you will never sell Starcraft to 4X players. Civilization playerbase does not give a shit about RTS games. Civilization BE is a completely different game from Starcraft as far as game mechanics go.

I guess it's too hard for you to differenciate that there is too many genres on STRATEGY games. If i say i refer to strategy games i can be talking about RTS or RTT (real time tactics), turn based, grand strategy (HoI) or city building (Anno/Skylines). Guess what, MOBAs ARE strategy games, more focused on the action part (ARTS). You have MMORTS (Clash of clans) or Tower defense games. Finally even artillery (Worms) games are considered inside of the strategy genre.

The majority of the people who played RTS on the 90/00 had been basically absorbed by the MOBA genre (DOTA, LOL, SMITE, HOTS). The ones closer to RTS not something like Battlerite. Not talking about the hardcore players but more on the "casual" side.

Except I mentioned a bunch of "RTS" games like Total War, Wargame, Men of War, Paradox, etc. I wasn't talking about Cities Skylines and PUBG, so no strawman. All I'm saying is its too early to declare RTS dead when COH2 is about as popular as COH1, other non-traditional RTS games are very popular, and there's been a lack of recent old school RTS games that were actually good. If AoE4 is an amazing game with terrible sales there would be more evidence behind the theory, right now is too early to say.

You do understand that the laws I described have the right to detain you on the basis of nothing just because the government sees you as a threat to the status quo? As I said, you can flap around the 1st amendment or the 4th. It doesn't matter. If they want you to disappear based on your 'freedom of speech', you will lol. You won't even make it to a courtroom. Now I know this isn't on the mainstream news, but you realize that in a courtroom (if you actually make it there before they snatch you away lol), you are in a different law regulated area. Ever noticed how the flag in the State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes? Anyone with any knowledge about this knows that the Yellow Fringed Flag is the 'Law of Admiralty' Flag. The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of any court, and is not recognized by any nation on this earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

We found our resident water filter and male vitality pill salesman.

Except I mentioned a bunch of "RTS" games like Total War, Wargame, Men of War, Paradox, etc. I wasn't talking about Cities Skylines and PUBG, so no strawman. All I'm saying is its too early to declare RTS dead when COH2 is about as popular as COH1, other non-traditional RTS games are very popular, and there's been a lack of recent old school RTS games that were actually good. If AoE4 is an amazing game with terrible sales there would be more evidence behind the theory, right now is too early to say.

I guess you are too stubborn to realise they are all strategy games but not RTS cause for you everything is an RTS even if most of those games are not classified as such even by their own companies. For simplicity sake, RTS and RTT are the same (Wargame/MoW). But it seems you never played a Total War game or Paradox game to call them RTS (not Steel Division). Crusaders Kings, Europa Universalis, Stellaris, Heart of Iron have nothing to do with RTS.
https://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/

Total War is a combination of both turn based and RTT (even if you can remove the component of real time by pressing a button). But it seems you already forgot about my original premise: Player vs Player RTS are on a downfall, if you don't like the term "dead" as is too extreme.

Again, this review is going viral and won't go away quietly. How will Microsoft/Sega respond to this?
Relic strike coming soon?

Relic's AoE/CoH Brand Manager (Alex Delamaire) link to this article below on his twitter account;
https://twitter.com/alexdlmr
https://twitter.com/alexdlmr/status/954551624822697984

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/01/22/improving-workplace-culture-one-review-at-a-time

A recent survey by Software Advice claims that nearly fifty per cent of job seekers in the U.S. read Glassdoor reviews.

Update to Review (Russian translator needed);
According to a Russian news source(https://game2day.org/), Relic GM (somewhat equal to studio CEO) has now confirmed the tough situation to reporters asking questions.

From Reddit (translation);

Russian source;
https://game2day.org/news/25369/insaider-studiya-relic-entertainment-na-grani-zakrytiya
https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/7vfgz5/relic_entertainment_is_in_big_troubles/
The title translated is: Toxic atmosphere, strong staff turnover - Relic Entertainment on the verge of closure

Its a tiny article so here's the copy and paste translated: According to the resource glassdoor, specializing in insider information, the Canadian developer of Relic Entertainment has faced serious problems and the existence of the company is in question. If you believe an anonymous source from the staff of developers, Relic Entertainment is experiencing serious problems with its management, which can not cope with the work in the market of RTS and its community.

Inexperienced management of the studio led to huge losses and can generally lead to the closure of the developer. Indirectly, this confirms the work with new titles Dawn of War III and Age of Empires 4. The microclimate inside Relic Entertainment is at a low level. Ordinary developers, seeing that any of their initiatives are cutting at the root, are on the verge of a strike. The company's toxic atmosphere led to a serious staff turnover, which is why the fate of Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War and Company of Heroes is in question.

CEO Justin Daudswell in a conversation with reporters confirmed the difficult situation that Relic Entertainment is experiencing now.

If you're on chrome, theres a translate button on the very right of the URL bar to translate the entire page, it only shows up on pages with a large amount of text in another language.

IMHO, if Relic doesn't get some new leadership a CA merger is likely the best option.
Anyway, best of luck to those "little guys" involved.

.... Anyone with any knowledge about this knows that the Yellow Fringed Flag is the 'Law of Admiralty' Flag. The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of any court, and is not recognized by any nation on this earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Good luck with those amendments there

This would be funny if it wasn't so pathetically incorrect. You're getting your "knowledge" of US law from right-wing nut-job websites and believing every last word.

The gold fringe is a decoration. The decoration is for indoor flags only, and has no special meaning in the United States, despite what the FreeRepublic wants you to believe.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Stitched-Resistant-Premium-Quality/dp/B071LSRLB9/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1518053028&sr=8-3&keywords=us+flag+with+gold+fringe

Now you can set up your own admiralty court. It would go well with tin foil hats.

Again, there us another glassdoor review with the same criticism of managment and stupid managment policy, nothing change in about 8 months since GM responsible
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Relic-Entertainment-RVW21432585.htm
Ok, now I have bad feeling that coh 3 will be hardly f**ked up.

So far, Relic is not responding to any inquiries or emails or posts on social media. They may as well be setting themselves to disaster on AOE 4.

Necro, please lock.