[Wehr/Soviet] Snipers relationship.

I read this and I shake my head...

1) Soviet Sniper team is 1 sniper and 1 normal rifle. AND their ROF is nerfed.(Soviet sniper team does a lot less damage/kills than OST Sniper.
2) Soviet sniper team have LESS health of ANY other unit in the game.
Most models have ~ 80 health. Soviet snipers have ~ 45 health. (OST Sniper
has like ~ 85 health)
3) Soviet sniper team lost going in clown car ability. They lost their
sprint ability. They lost their 2 sniper ability.
4) Soviet sniper team lose stealth IMMEDIATELY upon leaving cover. OST
Sniper keeps his stealth for ~ 3 seconds upon leaving cover. Allowing
him to jump from cover to cover. This patch note also 'fixed' (nerfed)
soviet sniper team in that sometimes they had stealth when 1 man was in
cover.
5) OST sniper has a faster ROF (+50%?) than the soviet sniper (remember,
a team is 1 sniper, 1 normal rifle).

Only advantage soviet has is their 2 man allowing them to retreat and
reinforce if 1 of their men are killed. But even if surviving one was
sniper, he would be weaker to the OST Sniper in E-V-E-R-Y other way.

OST Sniper : Easier stealth, better stealth. Aims faster, ROF faster.
Explosive ability. Levels faster. Way more health.

Also OST Sniper can be supported by MG/mortars.

Soviet Sniper cannot be supported by MG/mortars (at guns!) as it gives
this up by choosing T1 (Commander ones take longer to arrive).

I am serious. Look it up. OST Sniper kills models a LOT faster than the
"two" soviet Snipers.

Thank you.

The soviet sniper iirc already is balanced around 4 man squads. If i recall it shoots 4 4 shots slower than the ost sniper shoots 6. I think the OP has things wrong, the ost sniper is all about bleed while the soviet sniper should be about countering the OST sniper.

Is it possible to reduce the range or something of the soviet sniper perhaps if the spotter gets killed to help reinforce ambushing the ost sniper vs trying to duel?

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That is correct. The sniper team is 1 sniper + 1 spotter.
the Soviet sniper shoots 4x shots slower than the OST sniper shoots 6 shots.

It is VERY difficult to level Soviet Snipers.

OP is bitching that his stronger unit has difficulties against a weaker unit while they
have the same price.

- Plus, if soviet goes sniper, he loses out on all his support units.
- If German goes sniper, he sacrifices nothing in terms of options. He has MG, mortar, Grenadiers...

I think at this point, the only solution would be to remove the 2x man sniper team and make it a 1
man "OST sniper" with mirror stats to the OST sniper.

the stealth would go up, the DPS would go up, the vet would go up.
They'd move around 100% invisible like OST Sniper does.
They would wreck 4 man teams much faster.
They would not need to sacrifice MG, mortars, AT guns.
Their health would go up from 45 to 85.

I like the idea of getting rid of the 1 sniper, 1 spotter soviet team.
Can we make the snipers have the OST snipers and not have Germans complain that this is a huge Soviet buff?

(Don't forget that it is WAY easier to health OST snipers in the field than it is to heal soviet snipers)

So Soviet sniper would need access to a heal in the field as well.
For things to be balanced, I mean.
(They'd also gain MG support, mortar support, etc)

Also remove Penals, but give conscripts a DP28 upgrade.
And make molotov and AT grenade cost free (like Grenadier).
But remove Hurrah, of course.

I read this and I shake my head...

1) Soviet Sniper team is 1 sniper and 1 normal rifle. AND their ROF is nerfed.(Soviet sniper team does a lot less damage/kills than OST Sniper.
2) Soviet sniper team have LESS health of ANY other unit in the game.
Most models have ~ 80 health. Soviet snipers have ~ 45 health. (OST Sniper
has like ~ 85 health)
3) Soviet sniper team lost going in clown car ability. They lost their
sprint ability. They lost their 2 sniper ability.
4) Soviet sniper team lose stealth IMMEDIATELY upon leaving cover. OST
Sniper keeps his stealth for ~ 3 seconds upon leaving cover. Allowing
him to jump from cover to cover. This patch note also 'fixed' (nerfed)
soviet sniper team in that sometimes they had stealth when 1 man was in
cover.
5) OST sniper has a faster ROF (+50%?) than the soviet sniper (remember,
a team is 1 sniper, 1 normal rifle).

Only advantage soviet has is their 2 man allowing them to retreat and
reinforce if 1 of their men are killed. But even if surviving one was
sniper, he would be weaker to the OST Sniper in E-V-E-R-Y other way.

OST Sniper : Easier stealth, better stealth. Aims faster, ROF faster.
Explosive ability. Levels faster. Way more health.

Also OST Sniper can be supported by MG/mortars.

Soviet Sniper cannot be supported by MG/mortars (at guns!) as it gives
this up by choosing T1 (Commander ones take longer to arrive).

I am serious. Look it up. OST Sniper kills models a LOT faster than the
"two" soviet Snipers.

Thank you.

1 & 5) Having 1 sniper and 1 rifle doesn't matter because if you kill the sniper model the other one will switch the rifle to a sniper rifle and the rate of fire also is irrelevant because having both snipers killing 2 different conscript squads by the time the wehr sniper is done the soviet sniper team only has 1 last model to kill and seeing as the wehr sniper will be fighting 5/6 models and the soviet sniper 4/5 models I would say the soviet sniper team has a easier time.

2) According to stat.coh2.hu wehr sniper has 82 health and each soviet sniper model has 64, thus 128 health for the team (if I understood it correctly). If you ask me it feels like one more advantage because if it gets sniped you can always retreat the other model or if it gets chased by something it will take longer to kill the soviet sniper team.

3) They lost those for obvious reasons I would say.

4) I feel that that's the case to balance the fact that they are two man teams.

As I said before the explosive round ability for the wehr sniper is to give a chance to wipe the soviet sniper and don't come saying that we can chase them with a 222 or blob g43's because a good player will always protect and position his sniper well, you can only do those if you get lucky.

I like how people say that going t1 prevents you in any way to build t2. It isn't like you will spend all your fuel to build t2, you only spend 20 fuel to build t2 and 10 to build t1. But sure wehr sniper can have immediate support from hmg's and mortars (if that helps in any way...). Also wehr sniper only has pak support around the 10 min mark, until then it's fausts (cons can have AT nades too!) and pray that the light vehicle drives over a mine.

OP is bitching that his stronger unit has difficulties against a weaker unit while they
have the same price.

- Plus, if soviet goes sniper, he loses out on all his support units.
- If German goes sniper, he sacrifices nothing in terms of options. He has MG, mortar, Grenadiers...

I think at this point, the only solution would be to remove the 2x man sniper team and make it a 1
man "OST sniper" with mirror stats to the OST sniper.

the stealth would go up, the DPS would go up, the vet would go up.
They'd move around 100% invisible like OST Sniper does.
They would wreck 4 man teams much faster.
They would not need to sacrifice MG, mortars, AT guns.
Their health would go up from 45 to 85.

I like the idea of getting rid of the 1 sniper, 1 spotter soviet team.
Can we make the snipers have the OST snipers and not have Germans complain that this is a huge Soviet buff?

(Don't forget that it is WAY easier to health OST snipers in the field than it is to heal soviet snipers)

So Soviet sniper would need access to a heal in the field as well.
For things to be balanced, I mean.
(They'd also gain MG support, mortar support, etc)

Also remove Penals, but give conscripts a DP28 upgrade.
And make molotov and AT grenade cost free (like Grenadier).
But remove Hurrah, of course.

Really? If you can't control the salt level on your blood and don't have anything to contribute to this thread then shut up.

Having a two man sniper team is awesome but we need to be impartial when balancing. I feel that lowering just a bit more the soviet sniper rate of fire and changing it's ability to something else would help because right now people just build two sniper teams and use flares which denies any hope to counter snipe and add a doctrine with guards or the tank hunter doctrine and it's game over you can't do anything before a t-70 or t-34 hits the field.

What you guys are saying :

Soviet sniper team is much weaker than German sniper team.
- Less dps, less stealth, harder to use, and slower vetting.
(Despite being cheaper)

But it can hurt us anyways!

Let's nerf it even MORE.

As for amount of salt, you're the one who said your superior unit
wasn't superior enough, and that weaker units had to be weakened further.

- And you do agree that soviet models are the LOWEST HEALTH models in the
game. (Plus can't be healed on the field)
- And that Wehr sniper model is one of the highest health model in game
(Plus it can be healed on the field)

You are the type who, about chess, would say you ought to have 3 rows of
solid queens, and other side should only have 1 king.

Because, y'know, historically, Germans were superior. And thus should always win. Easily.

Someone else said : He and his friends had had 3x easy win streak then someone broke their ez win
streak, thus that thing they did ought to be nerfed.

Having a two man sniper team is awesome but we need to be impartial when balancing. I feel that lowering just a bit more the soviet sniper rate of fire and changing it's ability to something else would help because right now people just build two sniper teams and use flares which denies any hope to counter snipe and add a doctrine with guards or the tank hunter doctrine and it's game over you can't do anything before a t-70 or t-34 hits the field.
- You are not being impartial when Wehr already levels much faster and you
discuss lowering the ROF of a unit that's already impossible to level up.
- Just use mortars. OST mortars are already superior and EASILY 1 shot
soviet squads (all members). While German sniper cannot be killed in 1 hit.

T70s were nerfed vs AI. Also means later T34.
T34s were made more expensive fuel wise.
Pz4 was made cheaper AND buffed.

Because, y'know, historically, Germans were superior. And thus should always win. Easily.

Dude historically accuracy is very important but it's in the campaign. Here, I think, we all want to achieve a balanced state so the game can prosper as a competitive game that it wants to be.

- You are not being impartial when Wehr already levels much faster and you
discuss lowering the ROF of a unit that's already impossible to level up.
- Just use mortars. OST mortars are already superior and EASILY 1 shot
soviet squads (all members). While German sniper cannot be killed in 1 hit.

T70s were nerfed vs AI. Also means later T34.
T34s were made more expensive fuel wise.
Pz4 was made cheaper AND buffed.

I don't know the XP requirements to vet both snipers so please be kind enough to tell me the values and even if the wehr sniper vets faster that doesn't matter because once you play versus a good soviet player you wont even have the chance to use your sniper properly because you'll be using it to try to counter snipe and/or will be running away trying to save your sniper from his own.

And from now on I'll stop taking you serious, yes wehr mortar is very good but using a mortar to counter a sniper? Wehr mortar killing 6 models in one shot? Are you out of your mind? What rank are you?

t-70's are still very good and when they hit vet 3 they become the wiping machines they were before. It might be a later t-34 but you can gain a lot of map control thanks to a t-70 and thus regain the fuel you used to build the t-70.

T-34 costs 90 fuel while for instance the panzer 4 costs 120. Omg so expensive...

Dude historically accuracy is very important but it's in the campaign. Here, I think, we all want to achieve a balanced state so the game can prosper as a competitive game that it wants to be.



I don't know the XP requirements to vet both snipers so please be kind enough to tell me the values and even if the wehr sniper vets faster that doesn't matter because once you play versus a good soviet player you wont even have the chance to use your sniper properly because you'll be using it to try to counter snipe and/or will be running away trying to save your sniper from his own.

And from now on I'll stop taking you serious, yes wehr mortar is very good but using a mortar to counter a sniper? Wehr mortar killing 6 models in one shot? Are you out of your mind? What rank are you?

t-70's are still very good and when they hit vet 3 they become the wiping machines they were before. It might be a later t-34 but you can gain a lot of map control thanks to a t-70 and thus regain the fuel you used to build the t-70.

T-34 costs 90 fuel while for instance the panzer 4 costs 120. Omg so expensive...

- Wehr Mortar can easy 1 shot the Soviet Sniper team.
- The soviet Mortar team CANNOT 1 shot the Wehr Sniper. That's why it got the extra health.
So it would be un-1 shottable by mortars.

T70 rarely hits vet 3. T34 rarely hits vet 3.
Germans however do, regularly.

I am at work. So can't verify what vet requirements do. But we often do comparisons.
Soviet has Bolt action scoped rifle. German has G41 scoped rifle. aims, fires, kills way faster.
As a result German hits vet 3 about 3x faster than Soviet snipers do.

I am saying German sniper is superior in SO many cases.
And yet you still want the underdog to be nerfed even more?

On topic of balance.

I do think at this point, it would be best if all factions were mirror images of each other.

T0 giving Ostruppen to Germans (same stats as conscripts)(6 men)
T1 Strelski (remove penals) vs T1 Grenadiers.
Grenadiers being 6 men squads for 240. Strelski being 240
Strelski having free DP28 MG and AT grenade upgrade.
Strelski means regulars in Russian.
Strelski having bolt action rifles.
Strelski being able to make bunkers (for 150 manpower)
Strelski being self-healing (like grenadier)
No more hoorah

T34/76 having same stats/fuel/pop as Pz4
T34/85 being no commander and having same stats/fuel/pop as Panther.

Changing all the tech to be identical.
Making ALL factions being identical.

Deleting all commanders so players have a truly identical units

then only skill would matter

If you truly ONLY want impartial balance, you will say YESSS!!!!

Buffed Grenadiers.
Nerfed Penals.
1 man soviet sniper.

What's not to like?

- Wehr Mortar can easy 1 shot the Soviet Sniper team.
- The soviet Mortar team CANNOT 1 shot the Wehr Sniper. That's why it got the extra health.
So it would be un-1 shottable by mortars.

T70 rarely hits vet 3. T34 rarely hits vet 3.
Germans however do, regularly.

I am at work. So can't verify what vet requirements do. But we often do comparisons.
Soviet has Bolt action scoped rifle. German has G41 scoped rifle. aims, fires, kills way faster.
As a result German hits vet 3 about 3x faster than Soviet snipers do.

I am saying German sniper is superior in SO many cases.
And yet you still want the underdog to be nerfed even more?

I tested both soviet and wehr mortars versus both snipers and it takes 10 shots to kill both models (with vision and auto attack) from the soviet sniper team and takes one barrage (4 shots) and to kill the wehr sniper it takes 5 shots (with vision and auto attack, funny how it's half the shots ) and takes one barrage (3 shots). But then again this is with both sniper standing still and that never happens in game so a mortar wont ever be a counter to snipers unless you are the unluckiest guy and walk right into 2+ mortar shells. I just realized that wehr sniper has more health than the soviet sniper precisely because the soviet sniper can survive a mortar shell because it has 2 models and it would be very unfair if you looked away for 2 secs and lost your wehr sniper to a lucky mortar shell without the chance to react.

If your t-70's and t-34's dont hit vet 3 it's because you play too recklessly with them and loose them too fast, that's on you not balance. I have actually seen many vet 3 t-70's and t-34's...

It's intriguing that you say the wehr sniper hits vet 3x faster, that's just not true...
The much I write here the more I think that actually the underdog is the wehr sniper... Even if it's rate of fire is faster comparing to soviet sniper team rate of fire (which is 1/2 sec slower anyways) and having in mind that one sniper will be fighting 4/5 man squads and the other 5/6 man squads I come to the conclusion that the soviet sniper can wipe a gren squad or team weapon faster than the wehr sniper can wipe a con squad or team weapon.

If you truly ONLY want impartial balance, you will say YESSS!!!!

What's not to like?

Just stop being childish, no one want's that. We just want the game to offer options for players to show their skill and every unit should have it's counter and everything one unit has over another should be offset by something bad.

By looking at your profile avatar and signature I can clearly see that you are very soviet biased so I see why you are saying all these things...

- I didn't test how many shots it would take. I tested what happens in the
event of a direct hit. And yes, the Wehr sniper health was buffed because of that.
- Direct hit can wipe soviet squad, but not german sniper.

- Am curious. Actually want to test it now. Wehr vs 6 / Sov vs 4

- Am not being childish. Everyone bitches about balance. This is the
saltiest game ever. / If all stats were identical, then, finally, it
would be uniquely a game about skill, and there would not be ANY balance
issues. What's not to like about that?

= Of course I'm Soviet biased, but I think I actually root for the underdog. I noticed I play more German when they are felt to be the weakest. I teach the game to noobs, a lot, actually. Namely to Brain98 here, who'll probably read and reply here soon.

I just want a balanced game. And feel Germans are OP.
Germans are OP and wanting to be more OP and won't stop till all
allied factions are deleted and every game is instant victory

- I didn't test how many shots it would take. I tested what happens in the
event of a direct hit. And yes, the Wehr sniper health was buffed because of that.

So you agree that that's not something that makes wehr sniper op right? it's like that to purposely bring his survivability more in line with soviet sniper.

- Direct hit can wipe soviet squad, but not german sniper.

Again, that is next to impossible unless both models are on top of each other and that rarely happens. It would take the probability of both models being in the same spot + the probability of a mortar shell falling on that spot in the exact time the sniper is there.

- Am curious. Actually want to test it now. Wehr vs 6 / Sov vs 4

Hope you don't get disappointed when you realize I was right.

- Am not being childish. Everyone bitches about balance. This is the
saltiest game ever. / If all stats were identical, then, finally, it
would be uniquely a game about skill, and there would not be ANY balance
issues. What's not to like about that?

Balance most likely wont be, ever, 100% perfect but right now there are a lot of this unbalanced and a lot of things batshit crazy over powered. The reason people bitch about balance is because our comunity is very passionate about this game and want's it to flourish as the best rts.

= Of course I'm Soviet biased, but I think I actually root for the underdog.

That's why I am not taking your opinions seriously and this isn't a football game to root for some team, I play with all factions and therefore I want all factions to be different, fun and balanced to play with.

- If you were right, you were right. And I will even apologize about it to you.
We don't live in reality, we live in perception. / And only right is right. Not me, not you.

- I play all factions, with a slight preference to Soviets.
One can't help but have favorites. / But I am saying you are beeeegtime biased tooo

PS : My pic on Steam is my real me, with a German WW2 helmet
Just saying. I'm not 100% Soviet biased.

This is all dandy but then you realise that UKF, USF and OKW exist which makes balancing snipers even worst.

OP: you got it all wrong about "role".

OH sniper is supposed to bleed out SU sniper through cover/camo play while SU sniper has to ambush the OH sniper by staying ahead on cover and waiting.

SU sniper: give it the same camo as all other snipers. Either each model works independently as spotter and shooter, or every time the first model dies, it's the sniper to make unavailable to counter snipe. Spotter been a thing means that if it dies, the squad loses the extended LoS.

This is all dandy but then you realise that UKF, USF and OKW exist which makes balancing snipers even worst.

It's only dificult to balance sniper with okw since it's the only faction that doesn't have a direct counter that hits the field in time.

Either each model works independently as spotter and shooter, or every time the first model dies, it's the sniper to make unavailable to counter snipe.

That's actually a cleaner way to balance since both soviet and wehr players would be happy. The soviet player has a chance to save his sniper by retreading the spotter and wehr player doesn't get insta counter sniped by the spotter.
I would still look at 3 things:
-Soviet ROF, just to make sure it's not too strong versus 4 model squads.
-Soviet flare ability that reveals wehr sniper and every other cloaked unit, this might be a bit op for an sniper ability. I would suggest changing the ability to something else (give some variety to the faction, it has too many flares already) or make so that it doesn't reveal cloaked units.
-Wehr explosive round abilty. It takes too long to shot, or it misses or it doesn't shoot at all. Might be bugged.

I just want a balanced game. And feel Germans are OP.
Germans are OP and wanting to be more OP and won't stop till all
allied factions are deleted and every game is instant victory

Your playercard says your most played mode is "allies 2vs2 easy AI" and you lack all ranks in all modes.

Words cannot express how inadequate your experience is too make these claims.

It's only dificult to balance sniper with okw since it's the only faction that doesn't have a direct counter that hits the field in time.



That's actually a cleaner way to balance since both soviet and wehr players would be happy. The soviet player has a chance to save his sniper by retreading the spotter and wehr player doesn't get insta counter sniped by the spotter.
I would still look at 3 things:
-Soviet ROF, just to make sure it's not too strong versus 4 model squads.
-Soviet flare ability that reveals wehr sniper and every other cloaked unit, this might be a bit op for an sniper ability. I would suggest changing the ability to something else (give some variety to the faction, it has too many flares already) or make so that it doesn't reveal cloaked units.
-Wehr explosive round abilty. It takes too long to shot, or it misses or it doesn't shoot at all. Might be bugged.

It's difficult cause OH and SU sniper were balanced against each other in several ways and one of them been rof. OKW has basic 5man units and it indeed has a counter on either mech or Kubel (reveal and target table). USF is 5 and UKF 4 man base squads.

Unless something change, flares doesn't reveal cloaked units (i can't find that on the changelog)

It's difficult cause OH and SU sniper were balanced against each other in several ways and one of them been rof. OKW has basic 5man units and it indeed has a counter on either mech or Kubel (reveal and target table). USF is 5 and UKF 4 man base squads.

What I wanted to say is that Wehr, Soviets and the Brits have snipers so all can counter snipe while USF and OKW dont have snipers. The thing is that USF can build a m20 or pathfinders to try to counter the sniper and those arrive in the early game stage (I would say) while OKW can go luch but it only really arrives in mid game and by that time the sniper has already done a lot of bleed without you having any real good tool to at least pressure the opponent sniper. And no, kubel might spot the sniper but it's never going to kill it especially if it's the soviet sniper due to having two models.

Unless something change, flares doesn't reveal cloaked units (i can't find that on the changelog)

I tested it and it seems I was wrong, I assumed it did because I was doing a game versus double sniper and my sniper was hiding in light cover and as soon as the soviet sniper used the flare my sniper suddenly became visible, thing is I don't think he had any type of off map recon.

- Wehr Mortar can easy 1 shot the Soviet Sniper team.
- The soviet Mortar team CANNOT 1 shot the Wehr Sniper. That's why it got the extra health.
So it would be un-1 shottable by mortars.

T70 rarely hits vet 3. T34 rarely hits vet 3.
Germans however do, regularly.

I am at work. So can't verify what vet requirements do. But we often do comparisons.
Soviet has Bolt action scoped rifle. German has G41 scoped rifle. aims, fires, kills way faster.
As a result German hits vet 3 about 3x faster than Soviet snipers do.

I am saying German sniper is superior in SO many cases.
And yet you still want the underdog to be nerfed even more?

Honestly you lost all credibility here with "T70 rarely hits vet 3".

Soviet Sniper teams face off against small squad, high exp value Axis infantry. Wehr sniper gains crap ton of exp against Brits, but gains tiny amount vs conscript models. It's important to consider what the unit faces against when considering its value. It's definitely true the Wehr sniper has superior stats, but the argument you've completely failed to address is that 2man squads are far too advantageous when it comes to Sniper vs Sniper play.