BALANCE: OKW Sturmpioneer / Salvage / King Tiger

Don't you dare nerf Sturmpioneer survivability unless Volks actually get proper damage output simultaneously... that's all I've got to say about that.

Right now, OKW infantry power is lopsided blatantly towards Sturmpioneers, but that isn't unbalanced, because Volks are trash. Can't just go nerfing Sturms based on other changes happening to resource costs and such.

That is simply not correct. Volks are only 'weak' until T1 or T2 is built. Then they have their StG44 and Fire Nades which will make them win every engagement from mid to close while being in green cover.

Volks (and Grens) are not a rushing unit, if you try to storm an enemy position, they will lose. This is intended.
If you play against OKW, you will see that Volks are a pain in the ass because they get incredibly strong the longer the game goes. In the first minutes, Vet0 Volks are a piece of cake. But fighting against Vet5 Stg44 Volks is something that can be really frustrating.

Also as Allies, Sturmpioneers are cancer, honestly. You have to make a 'lucky shot' and let them drop at least 1 (better 2) model(s) when they are closing in in the early game, otherwise you have to immediately retreat in order to prevent a squad wipe.

Sturmpioneers are only a problem in the very early game and once they reach vet 3 and up. To nerf their salvage ability would be really harsh as would be a nerf to their sweeper abilities. They are an overburdened unit as they are.

yluch is useless after the first 10 min,or relagate to defend some sneaky inf squad, and stuart and aec are not you know why ? cause the luch is an ai only LT while stuart and aec are generalist with usefull ability (smoke,snare;blind,destroy engine) and btw it now comes later in DBP

Which is the case for all light tanks, I don't know what you want to prove here.

Stuart and AEC are soft counter for the Luch, their rentability only depend on if they finally manage to kill the luch which is highly hypothetical vs a good player. On the other hand a luch counter infantry, even if you take some damage from a Stuart or an AEC and have to retreat to be repaired, you actually bleed opponent manpower for every model dropped.

Imo the luch was an anomaly in the game design for the last patches. Early IA vehicle are supposed to be glass canon so is counterable with a proper combination of units already on the field. I hope the 85sec build will help to diversify the gameplay vs OKW.

That is simply not correct. Volks are only 'weak' until T1 or T2 is built. Then they have their StG44 and Fire Nades which will make them win every engagement from mid to close while being in green cover.

Volks (and Grens) are not a rushing unit, if you try to storm an enemy position, they will lose. This is intended.
If you play against OKW, you will see that Volks are a pain in the ass because they get incredibly strong the longer the game goes. In the first minutes, Vet0 Volks are a piece of cake. But fighting against Vet5 Stg44 Volks is something that can be really frustrating.

Also as Allies, Sturmpioneers are cancer, honestly. You have to make a 'lucky shot' and let them drop at least 1 (better 2) model(s) when they are closing in in the early game, otherwise you have to immediately retreat in order to prevent a squad wipe.

Volks (in live) already lose in an even fight, saying they they win in green cover is awful...IT CLEARLY implies that they should lose even with better cover.
Their flame nade is having a timer, their veterancy nerfed (which could be ok, if it wasn't that their late game performance vs cost, already bad before, is terrible now and make them UP..which is the reason why i simply proposed to roll back any change abd remove stg for a cost reduction).

Sturmpioneers are perfectly fine..it's a 300 mp unit that already fill your popcap and reduce income.
Okw starts with less mp because of that starting unit that combat wise is terribly situational.
It also bleed terribly and requires micro and placement skills to have some effect

Stuart and AEC are soft counter for the Luch, their rentability only depend on if they finally manage to kill the luch which is highly hypothetical vs a good player.

So anything is a soft counter by this logic. Not even a firefly can kill a panzer 4 if the player has skills to protect it.
I can't understand the logic behind it (does it imply luchs build time should be 240 second so jackson and firefly come at the same time LUL ?) but i'm sure those hardcounter luchs.

And what's the issue there ? Apparently atg's and snares/handheld at can't counter light vehicle, luchs implies no puma, so...

And aec and stuart stun shot are extremely helpful, as well as the sulimple at perfirmances, like puma..in the hand if a player worth a minimal amount of salt those scale perfectly till late game.

So anything is a soft counter by this logic. Not even a firefly can kill a panzer 4 if the player has skills to protect it.
I can't understand the logic behind it (does it imply luchs build time should be 240 second so jackson and firefly come at the same time LUL ?) but i'm sure those hardcounter luchs.

And what's the issue there ? Apparently atg's and snares/handheld at can't counter light vehicle, luchs implies no puma, so...

And aec and stuart stun shot are extremely helpful, as well as the sulimple at perfirmances, like puma..in the hand if a player worth a minimal amount of salt those scale perfectly till late game.

Luch vs AEC or Stuart matchup is balanced, its light vehicle play and the winner of this game between cat and dog isn't determined by mechanism but by skill and strategy. Stuart or AEC aren't death sentence for the Luch, a Luch can still be used and do what it is supposed to do, killing infantry, even if the opponent has an AEC or a stuart.

The problem lie in Luch vs infantry. At the moment the Luch hit the field, Infantry isn't enough prepared to receive it. This has little to do with skill, if soft counters aren't available at that time, then being more skillful isn't going to help you.

Luch vs AEC or Stuart matchup is balanced, its light vehicle play and the winner of this game between cat and dog isn't determined by mechanism but by skill and strategy. Stuart or AEC aren't death sentence for the Luch, a Luch can still be used and do what it is supposed to do, killing infantry, even if the opponent has an AEC or a stuart.

The problem lie in Luch vs infantry. At the moment the Luch hit the field, Infantry isn't enough prepared to receive it. This has little to do with skill, if soft counters aren't available at that time, then being more skillful isn't going to help you.

damn now u notice when allies have to go through this?, you seem to have never noticed ostheer agaisnt LV's in the past or clown car against OKW?

Which is the case for all light tanks, I don't know what you want to prove here.

Stuart and AEC are soft counter for the Luch, their rentability only depend on if they finally manage to kill the luch which is highly hypothetical vs a good player. On the other hand a luch counter infantry, even if you take some damage from a Stuart or an AEC and have to retreat to be repaired, you actually bleed opponent manpower for every model dropped.

Imo the luch was an anomaly in the game design for the last patches. Early IA vehicle are supposed to be glass canon so is counterable with a proper combination of units already on the field. I hope the 85sec build will help to diversify the gameplay vs OKW.

"soft counter " what? soft counter are zook not aec ans stuart , cause they can pen him all the time , cant be pen unless they show their rear (and even still they can deflect) are as fast as the luch , have ability to slow him down
btw i didn't see you calling for nerf when the t70 slaughthered inf and lv alike

The problem lie in Luch vs infantry. At the moment the Luch hit the field, Infantry isn't enough prepared to receive it. This has little to do with skill,if soft counters aren't available at that time, then being more skillful isn't going to help you.

Soft counters like zooks, snares, piats, at sniper, mines, vet 0 ap rounds on 50 cal, atg's..?

Bullshit...ukf and usf have far more softcounters to luchs than ost and okw have for uc/m3 clow car.

And again by the same logic okw that rushed luchs has no soft counter to stuart/aec

Soft counters like zooks, snares, piats, at sniper, mines, vet 0 ap rounds on 50 cal, atg's..?

Bullshit...ukf and usf have far more softcounters to luchs than ost and okw have for uc/m3 clow car.

And again by the same logic okw that rushed luchs has no soft counter to stuart/aec

Come on you know the issue - stuart and AEC don't eat your army (at least not quickly) if you lack enough tools to respond to them at the point they come out.

Clown car can be very bad for OKW but if your units huddle together they can drive it off. Huddling against a Luchs just concentrates its targets

Come on you know the issue - stuart and AEC don't eat your army (at least not quickly) if you lack enough tools to respond to them at the point they come out.

Clown car can be very bad for OKW but if your units huddle together they can drive it off. Huddling against a Luchs just concentrates its targets

can i ask why is this about luch now ?

can i ask why is this about luch now ?

The argument that has been going is about the delayed luch. It's probably been delayed because of the difficulty in countering it. Counter-argument says what about counters for allied light vehicles - why is poor luchs picked on. Counter-argument says AEC/Stuart are mostly built to counter the luch and little else because they don't have much other utility Then it devolves into shouting about who has the best soft counters etc.

I don't know if luch delay is fair but the whole argument is really boring and as usual involves fanboys shouting at each other.

The argument that has been going is about the delayed luch. It's probably been delayed because of the difficulty in countering it. Counter-argument says what about counters for allied light vehicles - why is poor luchs picked on. Counter-argument says AEC/Stuart are mostly built to counter the luch and little else because they don't have much other utility Then it devolves into shouting about who has the best soft counters etc.

I don't know if luch delay is fair but the whole argument is really boring and as usual involves fanboys shouting at each other.

no the dealy is fair but this thread is not about that

That is simply not correct. Volks are only 'weak' until T1 or T2 is built. Then they have their StG44 and Fire Nades which will make them win every engagement from mid to close while being in green cover.

Volks (and Grens) are not a rushing unit, if you try to storm an enemy position, they will lose. This is intended.
If you play against OKW, you will see that Volks are a pain in the ass because they get incredibly strong the longer the game goes. In the first minutes, Vet0 Volks are a piece of cake. But fighting against Vet5 Stg44 Volks is something that can be really frustrating.

Also as Allies, Sturmpioneers are cancer, honestly. You have to make a 'lucky shot' and let them drop at least 1 (better 2) model(s) when they are closing in in the early game, otherwise you have to immediately retreat in order to prevent a squad wipe.

I tune out automatically as soon as someone brings up veterancy or weapon upgrades when talking about unit balance.

The game is over before the first truck is setup if you can't at least hold one VP, FP and MP.

And even if that weren't the case, you do NOT balance units based on something they get later down the line.

The BASELINE unit MUST be balanced and perform well in some fashion. All Allied units do this, either due to high model count or high damage output. Ostheer Grenadiers have mid-high damage so at least they aren't totally useless (though the instant loss of one model upon engagement is a huge problem), but Volks deal no seriously threatening damage and don't have six models either -- middle of the road, mediocre, with no upside of any kind.

I tune out automatically as soon as someone brings up veterancy or weapon upgrades when talking about unit balance.

The game is over before the first truck is setup if you can't at least hold one VP, FP and MP.

And even if that weren't the case, you do NOT balance units based on something they get later down the line.

The BASELINE unit MUST be balanced and perform well in some fashion. All Allied units do this, either due to high model count or high damage output. Ostheer Grenadiers have mid-high damage so at least they aren't totally useless (though the instant loss of one model upon engagement is a huge problem), but Volks deal no seriously threatening damage and don't have six models either -- middle of the road, mediocre, with no upside of any kind.

I fail to see how balancing units according to their performance throughout all stages of the game is not a good idea.

Volks are relatively cheap, have good versatility with flame-nades, fausts, STG-upgrade and them being 5 man squads is pretty significant as well (manning support weapons, survivability).

Id say they do perform their baseline-infantry role pretty well.


Removing the salvage ability from the Sturmpios sounds like a terrible idea to me. Its a interesting mechanic (gain resources/deny abandoned weapons), and is fair since OKW is the only factions without caches, with hurts them quite a lot, as they are supposed to be a lategame-faction.

Sturmpios are pretty well balanced in their current state imo. Volks might get a bit overnerfed in the DBP though.

I tune out automatically as soon as someone brings up veterancy or weapon upgrades when talking about unit balance.

The game is over before the first truck is setup if you can't at least hold one VP, FP and MP.

And even if that weren't the case, you do NOT balance units based on something they get later down the line.

The BASELINE unit MUST be balanced and perform well in some fashion. All Allied units do this, either due to high model count or high damage output. Ostheer Grenadiers have mid-high damage so at least they aren't totally useless (though the instant loss of one model upon engagement is a huge problem), but Volks deal no seriously threatening damage and don't have six models either -- middle of the road, mediocre, with no upside of any kind.

If you can't hold at least those stated points in the early game than it's an l2p issue no matter what faction you're using.

Disregarding the claim that veterancy and unit upgrades shouldn't matter, stating that vanilla volks are useless is simply not true. They will beat riflemen at long range and infantry sections at close range (they beat cons all the time and penals are still bs so I'm not including those). They also have five men, more than an infantry section or grenadier squad, making them that much more durable despite higher target size (isn't it mainly axis players who complain about low model counts and how five man squads are king?).

And yes, you do balance units based on something they get later down the line. Would riflemen be balanced if usf got elefants as a nondoctrinal t4 unit? Obviously not. Would volks be woefully underpowered if the best upgrade they ever got was 1 mp40 s had no combat vet bonuses? Also yes. Units aren't balanced only in their relation to one another, but also the support their faction offers and the capabilities they get later on.

I never said you don't balance upgrades.

I said you balance the unit itself based on the vanilla, non-vet, non-upgraded version of said unit.

This is objectively the correct approach. It's absolutely unfair for any unit to be inherently inferior at everything before gaining veterancy or some upgrade -- that was my point.

Also, the "win at long range argument" that people love to use for both Ost Grenadiers and OKW Volks is hilarious, given that all Allied infantry suffers no damage and no model losses while closing the distance through an open field without any cover -- a critical design mistake that has persisted since Western Front was released and still persists to this day.

Everyone's getting off-track, shouldn't we be focusing on the OP's incorrect statistics and bad arguments?

"This unit is capable of effectively rushing and trading with any other engineer unit at a maximum loss of 2 models in exchange for a squad wipe. So, the effective trade in resources is 75MP for 170-210 MP."
<-- What a ridiculous scenario - the last time I saw this happen was when I played vs Normal AI. This already shows the OP is simply a very weak player. Not only do most players support their CE/RE with their first Penal/Rifle, but the fact that he's getting squad wiped when there's only 2 squads to micro really shows he shouldn't be making balance claims/arguments.

Few players are bad enough to lose their starting CE by fighting point-blank with a Sturmpioneer squad. But overall the OP totally fails to understand the overburdened Sturmpioneer role. They are costly, slow and expensive to reinforce, whilst every other faction can easily get multiple engineer squads if desired/necessary. Sturms simply aren't compared to other engineers 1 vs 1 because of the asymmetric design. He also completely ignores the benefits of the weaker engineers - there's usually only 1 sturm to do mine-laying, sweeping, wiring, and repairing, but those same tasks can be cheaply and more efficiently spread across 2 CE squads.

This is a dude who doesn't believe that Infantry Sections wreck Grens/Volks and he "needs proof" that Allied infantry are stronger, even though a quick look at the dps curve for Penals or Riflemen will show that they simply are. I don't think any experienced player "needs proof" to know that the Infantry Sections get superb bonuses when in cover. Playing as both Ost and Brits I've never seen Grens ever beat IS in a 1v1 fight. Unless you count "Grens standing in green cover while IS runs across a road" fights.

He's also losing his team-weapons early-mid game to random infantry and giving his opponents plenty of time and space to salvage - salvage takes a fair chunk of time and the squad salvaging suffers insane received accuracy. Which implies that he's leaving team-weapons unsupported AND retreating them very late, while not sending squads to re-capture what he lost.

The only valid point is that KT is too good - but overall the OP's perspective is that of a very lowly-skilled player, which greatly reduces the validity of his input on balance arguments. And those faulty stats...120 dmg on Pershing, wut??!!!

If only the patch wasn't being uploaded this week, without any of your new ideas


Maybe focus on something more relevant like trying to find OP strategies created by new patch so they can verify hotfixed

I never said you don't balance upgrades.

I said you balance the unit itself based on the vanilla, non-vet, non-upgraded version of said unit.

This is objectively the correct approach. It's absolutely unfair for any unit to be inherently inferior at everything before gaining veterancy or some upgrade -- that was my point.

Also, the "win at long range argument" that people love to use for both Ost Grenadiers and OKW Volks is hilarious, given that all Allied infantry suffers no damage and no model losses while closing the distance through an open field without any cover -- a critical design mistake that has persisted since Western Front was released and still persists to this day.

Lol have you ever played allies? Their infantry dies to bullets too.

If only the patch wasn't being uploaded this week, without any of your new ideas


Maybe focus on something more relevant like trying to find OP strategies created by new patch so they can verify hotfixed

Wait its actually being uploaded this week? Also, you're back?