[DBP] Recon Doctrine feedback thread

Overall I love the commander but it feels very munitions heavy - I don't know how you can ever fully utilize the commander when you need ~200 munitions just to call in and upgrade one paratrooper squad. I feel like Recon could be pushed over the top if some of the munitions cost of the paragroup was offset elsewhere (maybe higher MP cost but the paratrooper can upgrade either weapon package for free/less? or a small token fuel cost since it's probably going to be used to bridge LT builds)

in its current form the mine drop is way too strong, basically just an extremely large aoe frag bomb. it devastates weapon teams for a pretty measly 90 munitions. needs either a munitions increase, longer delay before the mines drop, or change so that it doesnt explode upon impact and has an arming time.

in its current form the mine drop is way too strong, basically just an extremely large aoe frag bomb. it devastates weapon teams for a pretty measly 90 munitions. needs either a munitions increase, longer delay before the mines drop, or change so that it doesnt explode upon impact and has an arming time.

1.7 is out and they did increase the delay on the drop. They come at a altitude of 50 from 40 so around a 25% delay increase.

Cluster bombs in 1.7

https://clips.twitch.tv/AmazingCourteousClipsdadKeepo

Cluster bombs in 1.7

https://clips.twitch.tv/AmazingCourteousClipsdadKeepo

Freedom and Democracy!
Did they increase lethality as well as delay? I don't remember them being this lethal.

Cluster Bombs seem too good for their cost.

They probably need a slight cost increase and a partial revert of the scatter change. Or is the lethality due to a bug? It seemed a lot less potent in 1.6.

Here one last suggestion for paratroopers to make the lmgs less of a no brainer and the vanilla squad more interesting to experiment with. This also helps the commander a bit since if non upgraded paras are actually interesting, you might be able to spend your muni otherwise:

1) Remove the ability to lay mines if the lmg is upgrades, this also makes a bit of sense

either
2) Give vanilla squads a timed offensive ability (20% rof, 10% accuracy buff) (a bit like tactical movement for thompson paras). This would help them fill a role as a flanker. The ability is removed if the squad is upgraded.
or:
2) Give them the "sprint" ability (50 cal's old vet 1 ability). The ability is removed if the squad is upgraded.

There is also the "bug" that some of the paratrooper bulletins do not affect recon paras: Fast capture (also does not affect recon pathfinders).

The same is true for all pathfinder bulletins: Be Quick or Be Dead!, Assassinate

Cluster bombs in 1.7

https://clips.twitch.tv/AmazingCourteousClipsdadKeepo

WTF seriously, can we stop making insta wipe abilities?

I don't get what's the issue there, cluster bombs aren't exactly as fast as a shell, you actually see flares, you see those things dropping..

Leave it alone nubs, leig incediary barrage is ridiculus for it cost

The new commander is a good, very well thought out revision of the original.

The greyhound, while originally it felt too strong, seems okay at 5 cps. The canister has the potential to one shot units however. I am not sure if this is intended.

I really like the commander so far, but to me it seems that the recon part got a bit lost with the loss of the greyhound vet 3 sight bonus and the replacement of the recon package (which admittedly never worked right).

With this in mind, I'd like to suggest something for the recon paratroopers:

The lmg upgrade has always been a no brainer. I'd find it interesting to differentiate recon paras more from their airborne equivalent by getting rid of the double mg upgrade and offering something like a recon package similar to the g43 upgrade for panzerfussiliers. The upgrade would provide them with a good buff to sightrange and some accuracy and/or rate of fire bonuses to their carbines (since there is not really a replacement weapon that could be used like in the case of pf's g43s). It could also add 1 sniper rifle to the squad. If it feels too weak there could be an ability similar to tactical movement that allows them to dish out a bit more damage temporarily. One or even both weapon slots would have to be locked to avoid double bar squads.

It would be great to have a carbine squad that can be used tactically instead of another lmg squad on an a-move mission.

I could see something like coh1 brit recon squad working. Sight bonus, small damage bonus and ability that lets you kill one model with a sniper shot for muni. It would also offer some counterplay to ostheer sniper that way.

Maybe even putting such upgrade on rifles instead of paras would be a good idea, so that the counter is earlier. Would have to fill all weapon slots ofc.

in its current form the mine drop is way too strong, basically just an extremely large aoe frag bomb. it devastates weapon teams for a pretty measly 90 munitions. needs either a munitions increase, longer delay before the mines drop, or change so that it doesnt explode upon impact and has an arming time.

It looks rather difficult to create a timer that activates on impact.

One of the issues of the ability is that all mines land at once, and if you didn't happen to be watching that engagements, your squad will blow up.

Would the following work:
- Reduce the concentration of cluster bombs on the outer rings of the ability
- Make cluster bombs come in 3-4 waves, with 2 cluster bombs coming early, just to provide a warning, and the inner ring dropping later

Alternatively, we can make an airplane flying over the area to provide the visual cue for the ability.

We could also make some of the mines plant themselves. However, that could create balance implications that we don't have the time to evaluate.

Cluster bombs in 1.7

https://clips.twitch.tv/AmazingCourteousClipsdadKeepo

If they are too lethal, why not reduce the damage and add suppression?

I still think a sound cue in form of an overflying plane would solve a lot of the issues Cluster bombs have at the moment. If you hear the sound of the plane, you know something is going on, then start to look around spot the red smoke and then you should have enough time to react accordingly. Also plane plus red smoke is unique in this commander so at least in 1vs1 you would know whats coming.

However, that could create balance implications that we don't have the time to evaluate.

Like a completely new ability?

Like a completely new ability?

More like like an ability that allows you to spawn S-mine fields at the enemy's retreat path on demand; while their infantry is running away for dear life from the greyhound. Or infantry fleeing away from real/fake artillery from IR Pathfinders.

More like like an ability that allows you to spawn S-mine fields at the enemy's retreat path on demand

You're right that isn't an new ability developed in this balance patch at all.

Alternatively, we can make an airplane flying over the area to provide the visual cue for the ability.

I think an actual plane that flies from the base sector and can be taken down would be an interesting implementation, and would allow you to balance between the survivability and speed of the plane, the potency of the mines and the munitions cost. Might not be enough time to test it properly, though.

I think an actual plane that flies from the base sector and can be taken down would be an interesting implementation, and would allow you to balance between the survivability and speed of the plane, the potency of the mines and the munitions cost. Might not be enough time to test it properly, though.

Planes can be made immune (e.g., Ost vanilla supply drops) or even untargetable (paratrooper planes). So, I wouldn't worry about that.

Planes can be made immune (e.g., Ost vanilla supply drops) or even untargetable (paratrooper planes). So, I wouldn't worry about that.

I know, I meant to say that testing the targetable version (which might be more interesting and unique) and then also testing an untargetable version if that doesn't work may take too long. You know the schedule better, though

Another thing, have you considered making the AT gun drop with a crew? Is that possible at all? Enabling paratropper-crewed weapons to reinforce at beacons already mostly solves this, but it would be a nice touch.

Another thing, have you considered making the AT gun drop with a crew? Is that possible at all? Enabling paratropper-crewed weapons to reinforce at beacons already mostly solves this, but it would be a nice touch.

We don't know how to implement paradropping fully-crewed AT guns