[DBP] Luftwaffe Ground Forces feedback thread

Surprised it took this long. Paratroopers not para dropping, but instead magically popping out of buildings inside which they were sleeping? Weird, in retrospect.

I trust the para drops will have a plane fly overhead, right?

I just love playing all doctrines that have planes in them in any capacity, and obviously, Luftwaffe Ground Forces is the most prominent of those, so having planes flying by dropping elite infantry just adds that much more to the immersion factor for this doctrine.

Removing the Fallschirmjager squad from Airborne Assault though... not a fan of that.

The combined arms approach of the ability really had a great feel to it. You drop Fallschirmjager while clearing the area. A spectacular entrance for spectacular troops. Now it has to be combo'd with the drop ability, which also means one less Fallschirmjager squad on the field in general.

We basically moved the paradrop aspect of Airborne assault to the Fallschirmjager paradrop. You don't need two abilities that do exactly the same. This is especially if keeping the Fallschirmjager drop would inflate the cost of Airborne assault.

Now, if you want air support you use airborne assault. if you want a paradrop, yo use the paradrop. If you want both, you use both at the same time (and also benefit from on-field reinforcements while the assault is active).

For Falls, as long as the bleed is not insane, they can still chip away at enemy squads and gain vet. Perhaps, the question we should ask is whether to further reduce the cost of callin in Fallschirmjagers, or move some of their later vet bonuses to vet0, so that they don't have to wait that long to deal damage (now that they don't have the annoying infiltration mechanic anymore).

I would prefer moving a latter vet bonus to vet 0 rather than another cost reduction. My rationale is, even late game Fallschirmjägers dropping in to face vetted Allied infantry would be useful. A cost reduction wouldn't help in that situation.

There have been a lot of moving parts concerning current Fallschirmjäger vet. This is what I have:

Vet 0: Received accuracy improved from 0.87 to 0.83

Vet 1: Unlocks the 'Blendkörper 2H Frangible Smoke Grenade' ability

Vet 2: -29% received accuracy, passive cloak

Vet 3: -10% received accuracy, +15% accuracy, Cooldown bonus of -20%

Vet 4: passive healing

Vet 5: 14.3% weapon range +15% accuracy

If the above is an accurate representation of the current Fallschirmjäger vet situation and we don't want to add more vet bonuses to the unit, how about moving one of the +15% accuracy to vet 0? I can't see moving anything else without weakening the current vet levels, i.e. making them pyrrhic, unless you add a new vet not already on the unit (probably OP).

We basically moved the paradrop aspect of Airborne assault to the Fallschirmjager paradrop. You don't need two abilities that do exactly the same. This is especially if keeping the Fallschirmjager drop would inflate the cost of Airborne assault.

Now, if you want air support you use airborne assault. if you want a paradrop, yo use the paradrop. If you want both, you use both at the same time (and also benefit from on-field reinforcements while the assault is active).

Except paradrop costs manpower, so like I said, this subtracts at least one Fallschirmjager squad from the match, which you would have gotten otherwise for just munitions.

You can't get the same number of Fallschirmjager squads when you have to pay manpower for them all.

The trick with Fallschirmjagers is that unlike most other elite squads, they're actually a generalist squad (stealth, faust, long-range). So, if we overbuff them in anyway, that's going to be the next panzerfusilier blob.

Specialist short-range squads have to come out stronger than average to allow them to have any effect. Conversely, those elite squads gain significantly reduced bonuses compared to the opposition, simply because they come out stronger than they "should" at Vet0.

For Falls, as long as the bleed is not insane, they can still chip away at enemy squads and gain vet. Perhaps, the question we should ask is whether to further reduce the cost of callin in Fallschirmjagers, or move some of their later vet bonuses to vet0, so that they don't have to wait that long to deal damage (now that they don't have the annoying infiltration mechanic anymore).

About long range - commandos can pick 2 brens and with it they will be stronger on long range then falls. At the same time commandos have stealth too.

In comparison with pantherfusiliers - fusiliers have 6 mens at squad, so its harder to counter with snipers (now snipers in meta like never before due penals spam and t1 soviet meta), and much harder to wipe with mortars/arty/grenade. So spam of the falls are easier to counter then fusilier squad.

To be honest fusilliers look more like base squade (like volks, rifles, cons and other), than like the elite squads (like commandos, soviet stormtroopers and guards, obers and other).

And last moment about vet bonuses - if you lost a vet3 commandos squad in late game (its harder then lost a falls squad due commandos have a 5-mens) you can call a new squad and give them 2 brens to make them usefull against axis vet squads. At the same time if you lost a vet5 falls squad, you cant do anything to make new squad usefull as commandos with brens (and as far as I know falls in current coh2 version need much more exp for vet5 than commandos for vet3).

P.S. I always compare with commandos, because I think that units have the same role on the battlefield - invisible elite squad for flank attacks and wiping hmg/atguns crews.

UPD. About fausts: my idea with FG42 upgrade by 100 muni cost will make impossible to spam them in early/mid game and make impossible to use few pantherfausts in the same time everywhere.

P.S. I always compare with commandos, because I think that units have the same role on the battlefield - invisible elite squad for flank attacks and wiping hmg/atguns crews.

UPD. About fausts: my idea with FG42 upgrade by 100 muni cost will make impossible to spam them in early/mid game and make impossible to use few pantherfausts in the same time everywhere.

But Falsch and commandos are competly different types of infantry.

It's impossible to spam them even without upgrade. You will bleed yourself out.

Show Spoiler

Falls seem to have relatively poor vet considering Obers get 40% accuracy and 25% cooldown at vet 2, like many other squads do(Ostheer grens, cons) Falls get 30% accuracy total and only 20% cooldown, with the latter half of the 30 coming at vet 5.

Falls Will get more RE through vet, but they start behind with .83 compared to .7 base. Edit: Falls and obers get -29% in vet

The only cost effective use I've ever found for falls have been to infiltrate near katyushas.

After that moment they operate like slightly worse/more expensive stg obers... that don't get that bonus v cover.

Expensive, situational, and mostly underwhelming.

Patadropping them is a change I like, but it may very well eliminate the above mentioned scenario from being where they're useful.

Spending 200 munitions to be able to temporarily spend manpower seems like it will be highly underwhelming.

I'll have to test and see just how many falls can actually reinforce while that ability is active this weekend.

I just don't see it being that useful... unless youre... timing assaults with unreinforced squads?

The only cost effective use I've ever found for falls have been to infiltrate near katyushas.

After that moment they operate like slightly worse/more expensive stg obers... that don't get that bonus v cover.

Expensive, situational, and mostly underwhelming.

Patadropping them is a change I like, but it may very well eliminate the above mentioned scenario from being where they're useful.

Spending 200 munitions to be able to temporarily spend manpower seems like it will be highly underwhelming.

I'll have to test and see just how many falls can actually reinforce while that ability is active this weekend.

I just don't see it being that useful... unless youre... timing assaults with unreinforced squads?

Its the Ostheer JU87 strafe now, thats quite a good ability and its the same price even with the reinforcement bonus

Spending 200 munitions to be able to temporarily spend manpower seems like it will be highly underwhelming.

I just don't see it being that useful... unless youre... timing assaults with unreinforced squads?

It's also a clone of OST Stuka CAS so the additional reinforce paradrops on the field is more of a bonus that I assume will be used 1B to the AT Stafe's 1A.

I get that CAS is and always will be one of the better munitions abilities in the game but I'm kind of sad to see the old ability go - yes I understand that the squad paradrop is redundant with the change to Falls but man I really liked the old-new Airborne Assault that you could use anywhere on the map. It was a unique ability that you could use for planned pushes instead of more no-brainer skill planes that you use to win any tank engagement.

Maybe add the reinforcement possibility for falls to valiant assault as well?
It doesnt fit very well, but it would give the ability more incentive to be used.

But Falsch and commandos are competly different types of infantry.

It's impossible to spam them even without upgrade. You will bleed yourself out.

I saw there only one difference - commandos are effective on short distances, falls - on long/mid.

I know what impossible to spam them now, we are discussing about buff for falls and how it will be impact on the game.

v1.8 was released last night. My buddies and I got a chance to test it.

Luftwaffe Air Support Doctrine

Fallschirmjager
To help with Fallschirmjäger's scaling due to their generally later arrival, we've adjusted there veterancy requirements as follows:

• Veterancy requirements reduced from 760/1520/3040/3800/5054 to 600/1200/2400/3000/3900
  

I wasn't sure if this would be enough, alone, rather than moving around vet to vet 0 like Mr. Smith originally suggested. However, after playing 3 games with this change, I noticed the impact. It seems to do what's intended without over-buffing Fallschirmjägers.

Air Assault Operation
We are changing the way airplanes deliver their payload to return some of the original uniqueness of the ability and make it more distinct from the similar Wehrmacht Close Air Support ability.

• Multiple airplanes deliver AI/AT strafes at the precise target location
  
• AT loiter airplanes arrive with a delay of 20 seconds and now deliver 2 strafes each (down from 3)
  

While it doesn't return the Fallschirmjäger component that some miss, this change does differentiate from CAS now. By the end of the night, I was getting used to the changes and liked the flexibility I was getting. By having the Fallschirmjäger drop separated from the Air Assault Component. Now you have finer granularity with how you can use them (separate or combined).

v1.8 Update:

Fallschirmjagers
Very good changes. Removes all the cheesy infiltration while boosting viability. However, the unit's call-in icon might have to be changed.

Airborne Assault
Very good changes. Gives players a good reason to pick Luftwaffe, as OKW does not have many powerful off-map multipurpose (especially anti-tank) abilities.

However, I would like to ask, is the AI strafe intended to not seek targets? In my testing, they would reliably insta-pin infantry and kill models as long as the enemy were within about 10m of the ability's center, but if they were outside of this very small area (but still within the larger AT strafe radius) the first three AI Stukas would fire at the ground and not effect the infantry at all.

What about using the transporter airplane model (kinda look same) to bring back from coh the Henschel Hs 129 "Panzerknacker" strike instead ?

Easily my new favorite doctrine Thank you mod team. With the falls paradrop does the announcer still say "Fallschirmjaegar on the field!"? I wasn't able to trigger that quote, which worried me a bit. One of my favorite quotes.

Falls still feels bad. In this game i has a vet5 falls squad and them cant fight against rifles with bars (in game was a moment, when they lose to a rifles with 1 bazooka 1v1). And vet5 volks are bad in comparison with vet3 rifles. One bar making rifles much better than volks with a stg44.

P.S. I know what falls better on long range, but the difference in compration with rifles with bars is not too huge.

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  RussianHamster

  Denchicpsih@HeroOfDonbass

  DBP2.0 Luftwaffe vs Armor

  by: RussianHamster map: Langreskaya

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Falls still feels bad. In this game i has a vet5 falls squad and them cant fight against rifles with bars (in game was a moment, when they lose to a rifles with 1 bazooka 1v1). And vet5 volks are bad in comparison with vet3 rifles. One bar making rifles much better than volks with a stg44.

P.S. I know what falls better on long range, but the difference in compration with rifles with bars is not too huge.

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  RussianHamster

  Denchicpsih@HeroOfDonbass

  DBP2.0 Luftwaffe vs Armor

  by: RussianHamster map: Langreskaya

  7

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This + 1

Just downloaded, great replay.
Volks being still 250/25 mp and still having stg upgrade is something i can't understand honestly.
Like you said, THEY CAN'T compete with bar/brens, but they cost only 3 mp less than said mainlines to reinforce...
If they aren't meant to is ok, but should be cheaper and trade their nonsense upgrade, which was ment to give them a late game scaling that Isn't required, nor intended anymore...
Falls and in general elite (obers) are now underwhelming against blobs mainly because the bar/bren blob dps output and the extreme good RA of those can itself compete and is much better/more cost efficient compared to said elites.

Is there a way to change the flak emplacements so that their health displays in a more intuitive way? Right now it's really hard to tell if you need to either repair them due to emplacement damage or heal the crew with Med kits. For that matter, if the crew is going to be sniper proof and have a super high RA then wouldn't it make sense to just have the flak emplacemnet act like a bunker health wise?

Is there a way to change the flak emplacements so that their health displays in a more intuitive way? Right now it's really hard to tell if you need to either repair them due to emplacement damage or heal the crew with Med kits. For that matter, if the crew is going to be sniper proof and have a super high RA then wouldn't it make sense to just have the flak emplacemnet act like a bunker health wise?

Why not just remove crew health and show the flak's "health"? British emplacement style.

Easily my new favorite doctrine Thank you mod team. With the falls paradrop does the announcer still say "Fallschirmjaegar on the field!"? I wasn't able to trigger that quote, which worried me a bit. One of my favorite quotes.

Please give back quote