[DBP] Tank Hunter feedback thread

On a related note: Do you have the option to give the commander an existing ability that other commanders have and change that? Sort of to get around the "other commanders are out of scope" issue?

Sure; we have that option. However, we don't want to add non-thematic stuff to commanders, just to be allowed to fix them.

At some point we thought of giving the commander a B4 or something.

Sure; we have that option. However, we don't want to add non-thematic stuff to commanders, just to be allowed to fix them.

At some point we thought of giving the commander a B4 or something.

Which would be great solution IMO and it would surely give this commander bigger chances to enter meta with a heavy blasting AT (direct shot) like B-4.

I mean, it's a "Tank Hunter" doctrine and I hardly see how you can hunt tank with Cons PTRS as a main ability

Which would be great solution IMO and it would surely give this commander bigger chances to enter meta with a heavy blasting AT (direct shot) like B-4.

I mean, it's a "Tank Hunter" doctrine and I hardly see how you can hunt tank with Cons PTRS as a main ability

I think no, the B-4 is very inaccurate, if it were possible to add new abilities, I would prefer the BS-3 100-mm anti-tank gun or SU-100

I think no, the B-4 is very inaccurate, if it were possible to add new abilities, I would prefer the BS-3 100-mm anti-tank gun or SU-100

The B4 also has a direct-fire ability which can one-shot medium tanks; if it ever works

I think no, the B-4 is very inaccurate, if it were possible to add new abilities, I would prefer the BS-3 100-mm anti-tank gun or SU-100

Sure it is, but that could be sorted out in a few ways. For example, team could make B-4 much more accurate with very big AoE but at the same time with very small insta-death area. Something opposite to Dive Bomb which means insta-death in whole area. Then B4 could be quite useful. Not much insta wipes but plenty of quite accurate hits inflicting big health drop and killing few models.
As for tank, dropping damage below 640 would solve insta kills (AFAIK damage was already lowered in DBP?)

On a related note: Do you have the option to give the commander an existing ability that other commanders have and change that? Sort of to get around the "other commanders are out of scope" issue?

This is exactly what they did; Tank Hunter tactics didn't have the AT gun ambush to begin with, but, because it fits with the theme, was added in and tweaked, while also buffing a widely featured but seldom utilized ability.

With reference to the comments I made on the other thread:

Penals could unlock a further AT rifle package much like one of the earlier iterations of the fall preview where they had three or four rifles, turning them into a properly dedicated AT squad. this way you'd retain a contrast between cons, with only 2 rifles but stealth and nades for the ambush, and penals, who'd be more like panzergrens in terms of direct AT combat but lacking the sneakiness of cons.

I agree that zis ambush is probably too situational.
I'd suggest trying to combining it with the M-42 deploy to fix two bad abilities in one go. basically when the command point requirement is hit, it unlocks camo for zis guns, and the button on the command bar calls in the M42. maybe the M42 could also camo, depending on balance.

thematically it fits tank hunter tactics, urban defense, and defensive very well. It also brings in the potential for T1 play, which the current ambush tactics basically discourages since it's a t2- unit specific ability.

As for balance, giving soviets a call-in emergency AT gun in so many doctrines might be a bit much- really it requires more testing. mainly concerned with shock rifle being too good since you get shocks + AT guns as call ins so you can deal with anything. Possibly nerf (!) the m42 itself to 50 range or so, lower crew members, cost adjust to match, etc.

If there isn't enough time to properly test it though, i'd suggest not implementing. The knockon effect of having the m42 with guards, m42 with shocks, m42 with cons could be pretty major.

+1 Strummingbird. M42 balanced and some kind of AT upgrade for penals could not only buff other underused commander so diversify t1 openings.

However this needs a properly fixed version of cons to be able to substain the AI of the core army.

Sure; we have that option. However, we don't want to add non-thematic stuff to commanders, just to be allowed to fix them.

At some point we thought of giving the commander a B4 or something.

How about giving them what the hull down ability should be - a 50%-75% reduction in target size, with no splash damage. Hull down just made tanks much harder to hit, it didn't make them more accurate or help them see or shoot further (if anything the opposite). However, having a lot of misses would, in effect, make Soviet tanks tougher.

Tank Hunter Report Card:

First thoughts, this is a very situational commander in the sense that almost all abilities are very situational; good performance is assured only happen under certain circumstances. But when it works, it works shockingly well, which is why this commander is extremely fun to play now. Setting up ambushes require a lot more thought and planning.

AT Ambush Camouflage
Coming early at 2CP is a much-needed buff. It works quite well, now that it is akin to a real-life "double-tap" ambush tactic (where the loader already has another shell and will immediately load as soon as the gun fires, making the gun fire very quickly for two shots). I assume that the bonus penetration and accuracy remain?

Conscript AT Package
Works quite well against light vehicles due to the fact that it gives the squad 3 PTRS rifles instead of 2. Allowing Conscripts and Penals to build PMD-6M light AT mines is good too. AT Grenade Volley feels more responsive as well.

Engineer Salvage Kit
The bug where it could not be upgraded in conjunction with flamethrowers/ minesweepers is gone. However, the UI is still bugged; when you salvage a vehicle, it shows a "+0" on top of the munitions and fuel icon. The resources are claimed, no problem with that end. May I ask for the resource values for salvaging vehicles?

Tank Ambush
Allowing the vehicle to rotate slowly works wonders, greatly improves the viability of this ability for SU-76Ms and SU-85s. Works quite well, also the bushes no longer appear in the fog of war. I assume the workaround was to give the bushes "ownership"?

However, there are several issues with this ability:
- The hull-down depression in the ground is still visible in the fog of war.
- If the camouflaged tank is within view radius (either through Spotting Scopes, or if the tanks are in Prioritize Vehicle and don't fire at infantry) you can use infantry squads to detect their position; hover over the tank and it will show you green cover.
- Assuming the Soviet player captures other players' abandoned tanks, will they also have ambush camouflage? So far I have only tested other Soviet tanks. The T-34/85, KV-1, and IS-2 have the ability, while the KV-2, M4C, and ISU-152 do not.

IL-2 PTAB Bombing Run
Very potent against enemy vehicles, has always been. Also destroys garrisons reliably.

On both ATG and Tank ambush:
If the reason to remove extra damage was to reduce infantry-wiping power, why not rework it into bonus damage vs vehicles? 40 bonus damage verses vehicle would make both ambushes much more dangerous due to how much burst damage a couple tanks/ATGs could deliver, which would force the Axis players to be much more careful.

Alternatively, I would say giving tanks the +25% reload speed buff would also work.

AT Ambush Camouflage
Coming early at 2CP is a much-needed buff. It works quite well, now that it is akin to a real-life "double-tap" ambush tactic (where the loader already has another shell and will immediately load as soon as the gun fires, making the gun fire very quickly for two shots). I assume that the bonus penetration and accuracy remain?

Yep! Those remain. The bonuses are there to enhance zis gun in the stats that it's currently lacking compared to other AT guns (penetration/reload time)

Engineer Salvage Kit
The bug where it could not be upgraded in conjunction with flamethrowers/ minesweepers is gone. However, the UI is still bugged; when you salvage a vehicle, it shows a "+0" on top of the munitions and fuel icon. The resources are claimed, no problem with that end. May I ask for the resource values for salvaging vehicles?

You get something in the order of 10-50 FU and MU per wreck, depending on the class of the vehicle (from kubelwagen to King Tiger). We don't know how to correct that UI glitch that you mention though.

Tank Ambush
Allowing the vehicle to rotate slowly works wonders, greatly improves the viability of this ability for SU-76Ms and SU-85s. Works quite well, also the bushes no longer appear in the fog of war. I assume the workaround was to give the bushes "ownership"?

However, there are several issues with this ability:
- The hull-down depression in the ground is still visible in the fog of war.
- If the camouflaged tank is within view radius (either through Spotting Scopes, or if the tanks are in Prioritize Vehicle and don't fire at infantry) you can use infantry squads to detect their position; hover over the tank and it will show you green cover.
- Assuming the Soviet player captures other players' abandoned tanks, will they also have ambush camouflage? So far I have only tested other Soviet tanks. The T-34/85, KV-1, and IS-2 have the ability, while the KV-2, M4C, and ISU-152 do not.

Bushes were already player-owned (for the camo effect). The fix was setting ghost-enabled to false.

We'll probably remove hull down depression for the reasons you mentioned. An opponent can quickly verify whether a depression is hiding a tank by hovering over with their cursor. Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix the green-shield thing, short of permanently giving soviet tanks a yellow cover effect.

We've given this effect to a few select soviet tanks. However, it's a bit painful to copy over the necessary values needed to every possible capturable tank.

On both ATG and Tank ambush:
If the reason to remove extra damage was to reduce infantry-wiping power, why not rework it into bonus damage vs vehicles? 40 bonus damage verses vehicle would make both ambushes much more dangerous due to how much burst damage a couple tanks/ATGs could deliver, which would force the Axis players to be much more careful.

Alternatively, I would say giving tanks the +25% reload speed buff would also work.

I don't know of a way to add target-table damage that hinges on conditional requirements. The reason ATG damage was changed to reload was that damage was too weak (purposely below the 200 threshold to avoid 2-shotting lights).

A reload buff on the tanks could potentially make them more deadly vs infantry, but we'll see. Perhaps, the most powerful aspect of tank camouflage is being able to gain a flank on an enemy with a turreted tank.

From my experience with the commander so far, the commander is a bag of highly-situational abilities. Every time I've tried to use all of them at the same time, I ended up hurting myself more than I hurt the enemy. Perhaps the right approach is picking the right tools for the right moment, and try not to overdo it; sort of like the commando doctrine.

You get something in the order of 10-50 FU and MU per wreck, depending on the class of the vehicle (from kubelwagen to King Tiger). We don't know how to correct that UI glitch that you mention though.

Well, that's a bummer. At least I still get the resources!

We'll probably remove hull down depression for the reasons you mentioned. An opponent can quickly verify whether a depression is hiding a tank by hovering over with their cursor. Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix the green-shield thing, short of permanently giving soviet tanks a yellow cover effect.

I see. Also a bummer, the animations are great!

We've given this effect to a few select soviet tanks. However, it's a bit painful to copy over the necessary values needed to every possible capturable tank.

Very understandable.

I don't know of a way to add target-table damage that hinges on conditional requirements. The reason ATG damage was changed to reload was that damage was too weak (purposely below the 200 threshold to avoid 2-shotting lights).

A reload buff on the tanks could potentially make them more deadly vs infantry, but we'll see. Perhaps, the most powerful aspect of tank camouflage is being able to gain a flank on an enemy with a turreted tank.

I'm not very skilled with the mod tools, but instead of giving this ability modifiers for the main gun, why not have the tanks fire separate projectiles? In my mind it works like Camouflage + Target Weak Point.

If this is possible, you could retain high alpha damage, high penetration, and high accuracy, but make it nearly useless against infantry by making the AoE very small.

From my experience with the commander so far, the commander is a bag of highly-situational abilities. Every time I've tried to use all of them at the same time, I ended up hurting myself more than I hurt the enemy. Perhaps the right approach is picking the right tools for the right moment, and try not to overdo it; sort of like the commando doctrine.

I agree with this. Often it's the combination of PMD-6M + Conscript AT Grenade Volley, or T-34/76 Ambush + IL-2 PTAB.

Due to how I play this commander, I don't really use the ATG (except if I steal a Pak 40).

A bit off topic, but I go 3 Cons into 3 Penals, T-70 next, then T-34/76. I use Penals and Cons in pairs. After 3CP, Penals make up the anti-infantry power that Cons lose when I upgrade them with 3x PTRS, while Cons cover up the anti-vehicle deficiencies of Penals. Really great synergy, thus I don't see a need for improvements to the Penal AT package. Also, you don't need to tech AT Grenades for Cons to use their AT volley.

I'm not very skilled with the mod tools, but instead of giving this ability modifiers for the main gun, why not have the tanks fire separate projectiles? In my mind it works like Camouflage + Target Weak Point.

If this is possible, you could retain high alpha damage, high penetration, and high accuracy, but make it nearly useless against infantry by making the AoE very small.

That requires a weapon change, and weapon changes can be very messy (e.g., double-shot)

That requires a weapon change, and weapon changes can be very messy (e.g., double-shot)

Ahh, okay, I don't want something like Pershing HVAP happening again so let's keep it simple

Kinda like the changes in 1.6. However b4 seems to fit better with commander rather than ml20. Plus ml20 is in a lot of commanders which b4 is not.

B4 could be reworked as an AT artillery than can't be shot without view (not through FOW) and will damage only tanks. In order to compensate make it less RNG and more accurate.

Kinda like the changes in 1.6. However b4 seems to fit better with commander rather than ml20. Plus ml20 is in a lot of commanders which b4 is not.

B4 could be reworked as an AT artillery than can't be shot without view (not through FOW) and will damage only tanks. In order to compensate make it less RNG and more accurate.

B4 was our first choice.

However, the commander needs something reliable to crutch onto, since every other ability is situational.

There is no way to make B4 work reliably, without either making it look weird (e.g., B4 shells dealing same AoE as ML-20), or letting it perform like a complete RNG cannon, which would ruin the doctrine.

There was also always the danger of overbuffing B-4 and forcing players to fight vs waves upon waves of Counterattack/Tank-Hunter tryhards.

B4 was our first choice.

However, the commander needs something reliable to crutch onto, since every other ability is situational.

There is no way to make B4 work reliably, without either making it look weird (e.g., B4 shells dealing same AoE as ML-20), or letting it perform like a complete RNG cannon, which would ruin the doctrine.

There was also always the danger of overbuffing B-4 and forcing players to fight vs waves upon waves of Counterattack/Tank-Hunter tryhards.

Why not try to give the Soviets access to HEAT or HVAP rounds for medium tanks/TD in this commander, I think it would be very thematic.
They will be boost some damage/pen but totally usless aganist infantry, it can be a timed ability same as Elite armor doctrine or two switchable rounds as on USF Sherman.

I hope my fav commander gets the B-4 at least. Would be nice for late game when the Germans are digging in waiting for armor.

I personally wish the AT package would just keep with conscripts, seeing how everyone spams panels now its kinda eh.

Losing the hull-down depression is bittersweet; it looks so good but allows your opponent to just attack ground. It's still a good change gameplay-wise.

On the other hand, I don't see the need to add the ML-20 to this commander. The Soviets already has a unit that needs to be dived after by vehicles, which is the Katyusha.

B4 was our first choice.

However, the commander needs something reliable to crutch onto, since every other ability is situational.

There is no way to make B4 work reliably, without either making it look weird (e.g., B4 shells dealing same AoE as ML-20), or letting it perform like a complete RNG cannon, which would ruin the doctrine.

There was also always the danger of overbuffing B-4 and forcing players to fight vs waves upon waves of Counterattack/Tank-Hunter tryhards.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. As you said the commander needs something. ML20 does not fit at all in the theme. I still think B4 reworked properly (specific AT role and less RNG) is the best solution. However if it's not possible maybe a Heavy call in? Something like kv2? ISU with AT rounds only? Command su85 like panther command? Just giving ideas.