[DBP] Guard Rifle Combined Arms Tactics feedback

In order to receive better-quality feedback about commander changes, we will be creating individual threads for each revamped commander.

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Intent of the changes

Post-DBP and assuming no commander revamp, Soviets would be lacking any decent commanders. That's primarily because of Shock Troops/Guards being meh, which makes said doctrines being meh.

The last remaining traditional OP commanders have been weakened due to a series of other changes (Penal nerfs, Lend-Lease changes and Mother Russia nerfs).

If we take Guards, Shocks and Howitzer changes for granted, my assumption is that the following commanders will now (re)-enter the meta:
- Guards Motor
- Shock Rifle Frontline
- Soviet Reserve Army

Thus, the question becomes; can we do better and add more doctrines to the meta? The reason why Guards Combined Arms was selected was that it was a meh commander with mostly meh abilities. Most importantly, most of those abilities overlap with decent doctrines which deserve a place in the meta.

Basically, by fortifying the strength of the abilities in the commander, the following commanders now enter the meta:
- Armoured Assault Tactics
- Mechanized Support Tactics
- Terror
- Soviet Combined Arms Army

Lesser commanders also start to look a bit more appealing, but possibly not dominant in the meta:
- Anti-infantry Tactics
- Shock Motor Heavy Tactics
- Shock Army

What remains to pull the commander from the lesser commanders to meta commanders is to make Hit the Dirt and IL-2 Strafe powerful enough to rival the competing abilities

Hit the Dirt

In live version, the ability is supposed to spawn yellow cover even if there is yellow cover.

On paper, this is the hallmark of a super-situational ability.

In practice, the yellow cover that the ability was supposed to spawn was bugged, so you never benefited from anything other than suppression resistance.

IL-2 Strafing run

This ability needs to be good enough for people to consider using it over a bombing strike that you can use to finish off OKW trucks, etc, etc.

The key change to the this ability comes from the fact that OKW no longer has effortless access to AA.

Currently the ability only targets infantry. We could change it to allow it to also target light vehicles.

Where exactly is the changelog for the commanders?

Hit the dirt

Hit the dirt in it's new form seems to me to be more restrictive since the only way to use it effectively seems to be to use it in cover (which requires the presence of cover) so that it stacks with other cover bonuses. For the stacked cover bonuses the trade-off is however immobility, the initial inability to break the state and less dps.

Suppression immunity, is quite powerful but underutilised by many. It can be used quite effectively to dislodge mgs (which can be seen as bad play and if that was the general perception, then it seems fair to remove it).

After more games:
The ability seems potent if paired with vet 3 cons. But then again, it's usefulness is almost entirely limited to cover.


IL-2

This ability seems weaker to me. While it wasn't very strong before, there was the occasional situation where it would deal massive damage to bunched up squads. The damage is so evenly spread now that the strafe does seem to cause very little manpower damage on the first pass.

After testing the ability in 2 1v1 games with little success, I tried to test some more with the cheatmod:
Even units in the open suffer hardly any losses even when standing still for an entire minute. I tested this several times with 3 bunched up cons in the open (no cover) and the strafe managed to kill 5-7 cons on average, if they remained the entire time in the zone (60 seconds). (I realised after some more 1v1s that testing against cons is of course quite unrepesentative with the exception of panzerfussiliers and osttruppen.)

One of the potential problems I saw was that a lot of projectiles collide with world objects (bushes, trees, buildings etc). I am not sure if this was exacerbated by the minimum range change. But overall the strafe seems a bit worse.

What does the tracking change do exactly?

After more games:

I still think there might be a problem with too many projectiles missing but it seems I was a bit unlucky in the initial games because cover seems to strongly influence the performance. I still think the ability is weak for its cost.

Where exactly is the changelog for the commanders?

Here you go:
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/272941#Comment_272941

Hit the dirt

Hit the dirt in it's new form seems to me to have fewer potential uses and be more restrictive since the only way to use it effectively seems to use it in cover (which requires the presence of cover) so that it stacks with other cover bonuses. For the stacked cover bonuses the trade-off is however immobility and less dps.

Suppression immunity, is quite powerful but underutilised by many. It can be used quite effectively to dislodge mgs (which can be seen as bad play and if that was the general perception, then it seems fair to remove it).

The new ability is basically the infantry section's received accuracy bonus with two drawbacks (but also twice as powerful) at the cost of a commander ability.

It could be turned into just that by reducing it to 15% or 10% (or even less) received accuracy bonus when in cover and remove the prone button and the accuracy penalty.

To me it always seemed that the ability was underused because it comes with weak commanders and because it requires additional micro to use (yes, it's not much but to be able to use it in the situation where it is very useful, you have to be quite quick to react).

IL-2

This ability seems weaker to me. While it wasn't very strong before, there was the occasional situation where it would deal massive damage to bunched up squads. The damage is so evenly spread now that the strafe does little at all.

After testing the ability in 2 1v1 games with little success, I tried to test some more with the cheatmod:
Even units in the open suffer hardly any losses even when standing still for an entire minute. I tested this several times with 3 bunched up cons in the open (no cover) and the strafe managed to kill 4-5 cons on average, if they remained the entire time in the zone (60 seconds).

One of the potential problems I saw was that a lot of projectiles collide with world objects. I am not sure if this was exacerbated by the minimum range change. But overall the strafe seems quite a bit worse.

What does the tracking change do exactly?



Here you go:
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/272941#Comment_272941

I think the idea about revamp is that these commanders were considered bad becouse they had situational abilities, like il-2 strafe, which normally doesn't do much but when it does it is way over the top. In example of strafe it could lead to massive infantry wipes, which is much more damage than soviet player payed for. This means that to make these commanders competitive, but without making them overpowered or frustrating to play against, they had to change abilities in a way that is more predictable and doesn't swing battle so much. That is why some of these abilities may feel weak for their former users compared to old ones even if they have been in fact buffed all in all.

I think the idea about revamp is that these commanders were considered bad becouse they had situational abilities, like il-2 strafe, which normally doesn't do much but when it does it is way over the top. In example of strafe it could lead to massive infantry wipes, which is much more damage than soviet player payed for. This means that to make these commanders competitive, but without making them overpowered or frustrating to play against, they had to change abilities in a way that is more predictable and doesn't swing battle so much. That is why some of these abilities may feel weak for their former users compared to old ones even if they have been in fact buffed all in all.

I am an advocate of changes like that. But the new strafe seems overall weaker because the old strafe, even if it was bad, still managed to successfully inflict some manpower bleed on the first pass. The new strafe spreads its damage so evenly that it is quite rare to see (any model losses on the first pass). The impact of the 2nd and 3rd strafe is immaterial since no one in their right mind will stay for that long. I am okay with the strafe being interpreted as more of a area of denial tool, but for that it seems too expensive at 180 munitions.

As described in my intial post, there is also the problem of a lot of projectiles hitting world objects like bushes, houses etc. I'm not sure if it is worse now than before but it was that behaviour that might have made the (old) il-2 a rather unreliable.

Could you change the strafing run to be somewhat like the vet one ability for the Centaur? Where you draw a line on the map and the run attacks that part?

Could you change the strafing run to be somewhat like the vet one ability for the Centaur? Where you draw a line on the map and the run attacks that part?

You mean fix Modern Warfare strafe (which does that, when it doesn't bug out), and replace the skillplane loiter with the strafe?

The thing is, that the IL-2 bombing run is great (howitzers, bases and even tanks/infantry if used really well), and this strafing run should give people a reason to pick it over IL- bombing run.

Hit the dirt in it's new form seems to me to be more restrictive since the only way to use it effectively seems to be to use it in cover (which requires the presence of cover) so that it stacks with other cover bonuses. For the stacked cover bonuses the trade-off is however immobility, the initial inability to break the state and less dps.

It's more powerful than before though. Old hit the dirt gave 0 benefits when used either in-cover or out-of-cover (due to bugs). Now you also have the option of holding out MUCH longer in a green-cover vs green-cover fight.

The question though, is if hit the dirt & ppsh is good enough to pick this commander over, say, AT gun ambush & recon (which would give you the other combined arms commander).

I still think there might be a problem with too many projectiles missing but it seems I was a bit unlucky in the initial games because cover seems to strongly influence the performance. I still think the ability is weak for its cost.

I think that's because accuracy is set to 1. This means projectiles start to miss (especially in craters), and the ambient area matters. The AT strafe skillplane ability from OST also has accuracy set to 1, but it practically never misses vs tanks (conversely, USF/UKF rocket planes have accuracy set to 0, which is why they don't fire heat-seeking rockets).

If we keep skillplane loiter as is, we'd probably bump up its accuracy by a lot and, if necessary, reduce damage. That way it can produce consistent results.

You mean fix Modern Warfare strafe (which does that, when it doesn't bug out), and replace the skillplane loiter with the strafe?

The thing is, that the IL-2 bombing run is great (howitzers, bases and even tanks/infantry if used really well), and this strafing run should give people a reason to pick it over IL- bombing run.

Well make it happen quickly, and be pretty accurate. I imagine this ability more as a very highly targeted rapid attack that is only really useful against infantry. Maybe to take out a team weapon, or deny a lost team weapon to hostile capture.

And i dont know what the Modern Warfare strafe is. I was thinking specifically of the one on the Brit centaur, where you can make it as big or small as you like.

Well make it happen quickly, and be pretty accurate. I imagine this ability more as a very highly targeted rapid attack that is only really useful against infantry. Maybe to take out a team weapon, or deny a lost team weapon to hostile capture.

And i dont know what the Modern Warfare strafe is. I was thinking specifically of the one on the Brit centaur, where you can make it as big or small as you like.

So, something that covers the IL-2 precision bombing area, but with one plane strafing, and the airplane making a quick pass (but with a delay, to avoid cheesy edge-map attacks) that can potentially wipe team weapons, if not dodged properly.

Something like the CAS commander AT strafe, for say 125-ish muni?

So, something that covers the IL-2 precision bombing area, but with one plane strafing, and the airplane making a quick pass (but with a delay, to avoid cheesy edge-map attacks) that can potentially wipe team weapons, if not dodged properly.

Something like the CAS commander AT strafe, for say 125-ish muni?

Wait so, you are replacing the bombing run with something else? sorry i thought you were adding a totally different ability

Wait so, you are replacing the bombing run with something else? sorry i thought you were adding a totally different ability

I'm asking whether you suggest replacing the strafing run ability with something like the one indicated above. IL-2 bombing run is already a strong ability.

Is it possible to add area of suppression so IL-2 will suppress target and nearby squads? Like Stuka AI loiter from ostheer Assault Support doctrine (or whatever it's called, the one with Opel Truck), but with suppression instead of insta-pin?

Is it possible to add area of suppression so IL-2 will suppress target and nearby squads? Like Stuka AI loiter from ostheer Assault Support doctrine (or whatever it's called, the one with Opel Truck), but with suppression instead of insta-pin?

The loiter does deal and has dealt suppression. But the old implementation was rather weak there. I think the new strafe is better at causing light suppression because of the 2 planes now firing.

It's more powerful than before though. Old hit the dirt gave 0 benefits when used either in-cover or out-of-cover (due to bugs). Now you also have the option of holding out MUCH longer in a green-cover vs green-cover fight.

The question though, is if hit the dirt & ppsh is good enough to pick this commander over, say, AT gun ambush & recon (which would give you the other combined arms commander).

I do see the benefit and there is a point to be made for the added staying power. But one of the issues is that the ability is now entirely defensive as it requires cover (to be effective, in my view), renders the unit immobile, reduces dps and defensive use seems the only way to be able to break out of the ability to dodge nades.

Played more. The more I use it, the more I warm up to it

I think that's because accuracy is set to 1. This means projectiles start to miss (especially in craters), and the ambient area matters. The AT strafe skillplane ability from OST also has accuracy set to 1, but it practically never misses vs tanks (conversely, USF/UKF rocket planes have accuracy set to 0, which is why they don't fire heat-seeking rockets).

If we keep skillplane loiter as is, we'd probably bump up its accuracy by a lot and, if necessary, reduce damage. That way it can produce consistent results.

Absolutely, this seems a good approach.

I think the two abilities holding this commander back are Hit the Dirt and PPSH

Hit the dirt should be comparable in usefulness to ambush camo(new), Stun grenades, infiltration nades, tank smoke and other 2 cp abilities. Ex: now i can ambush enemies and scout better. I can counter buildings and cqb units or approach guys in cover and win, i can play agressively with tanks. Hit the dirt is "I can stand in cover and not be supressed" which was the purpose of using cover in the first place. Is there another way to really use it thats exciting or different or interesting?

Right now it doesn't have a real purpose or direction for the highly mobile conscript squad, and its the worst ever at synergizing with ppshes. When the cons are the assault force in the doctrine its just silly. Something like For mother Russia would make more sense at least stylistically.(not that they should get it)
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Regarding ppsh's I think they are a pretty meh upgrade, going all ppsh with a higher price or trying another weapon might make it more desirable, or having some synergy with a replacement hit the dirt. Not that it needs a change but It would let a lot of commanders get a second look if it was more worth it. Again Compared to -Engineer/RE Flamers, Rifle LMGs, G43s on grens it doesn't look comparably effective and doesn't influence playstyle as much.

Mabye I'm alone but I find the Live Sturmovik to be pretty good. I pick armored assult more often than not to use it in 4v4s right now for its effectiveness at pushing Ostheer off the field, not as good vs OKW b/c the infantry blob retreats and comes right back and the AA capacity they have but still engagement changing in an attack. Have not been able to test patch version rn.

TLDR: If the doctrine actually made cons feel stronger as it should, people will pick it up

I think the two abilities holding this commander back are Hit the Dirt and PPSH

Hit the dirt should be comparable in usefulness to ambush camo(new), Stun grenades, infiltration nades, tank smoke and other 2 cp abilities. Ex: now i can ambush enemies and scout better. I can counter buildings and cqb units or approach guys in cover and win, i can play agressively with tanks. Hit the dirt is "I can stand in cover and not be supressed" which was the purpose of using cover in the first place. Is there another way to really use it thats exciting or different or interesting?

Right now it doesn't have a real purpose or direction for the highly mobile conscript squad, and its the worst ever at synergizing with ppshes. When the cons are the assault force in the doctrine its just silly. Something like For mother Russia would make more sense at least stylistically.(not that they should get it)
Show Spoiler

Regarding ppsh's I think they are a pretty meh upgrade, going all ppsh with a higher price or trying another weapon might make it more desirable, or having some synergy with a replacement hit the dirt. Not that it needs a change but It would let a lot of commanders get a second look if it was more worth it. Again Compared to -Engineer/RE Flamers, Rifle LMGs, G43s on grens it doesn't look comparably effective and doesn't influence playstyle as much.

Mabye I'm alone but I find the Live Sturmovik to be pretty good. I pick armored assult more often than not to use it in 4v4s right now for its effectiveness at pushing Ostheer off the field, not as good vs OKW b/c the infantry blob retreats and comes right back and the AA capacity they have but still engagement changing in an attack. Have not been able to test patch version rn.

TLDR: If the doctrine actually made cons feel stronger as it should, people will pick it up

What if the commander gave penals also access to ppsh and hit the dirt?

We could try reverting the ppsh nerfs, and se how they feel with more expensive oorah and lower cons RA.

Hit the dirt is tough, and ideas are welcome.

Hon3ynuts pretty much said it all. Hit the dirt and ppsh is the issue in the commander. If we adress this two things here, other forgiven commanders may become more useful too. This is a serious revamp, so let's adress it properly.

I do think replacing ppsh for a dp28 upgrade to cons feels more desirable than any other thing. Ppsh's never fit to cons in any way, so we can tweak stats and price, but won't fix anything at all. Ppsh's to penals may work, but looks like too risky move.
In regards to hit the dirt it's hard to make interesting how the ability is supposed to work. It could be reworked like an static for the motherland ability perhaps?

Is there any chance that it's possible to make hit the dirt cause soldiers to crawl and very slowly move towards the target?

What if the commander gave penals also access to ppsh and hit the dirt?

We could try reverting the ppsh nerfs, and se how they feel with more expensive oorah and lower cons RA.

Hit the dirt is tough, and ideas are welcome.

Hit the dirt for penal could be something to look at, but it might exacerbate the problems with penals as well. I think the current hit the dirt is interesting. It takes getting used to though, but I think it has potential. Well done

ppshs for penals don't seem to make sense. Penals are able to deal good damage close, but what makes them good is their mid to far damage in comparison to cons. ppshs would just remove the part that makes them attractive. This is due to the fact that ppshs, unlike all other weapon upgrades (bars, brens, lmgs, thompsons (slight decrease at long range), stgs, g43s) in the game, come with trade-offs. They trade near damage for mid to far damage. ppsh damage falls off sharply after 10. It can be frustratingly hard to get any wipes with shocks (for example) even if you manage to flank because the damage falls off so sharply and is for all intents and purposes 0 after a distance of 15. (Edit: sorry, this has nothing to do with the point of this thread and is just my frustration with the weapon, or rather all other weapon upgrades (a-move enablers), speaking )

I tried the new il2 and it seems better now. However, it will completely wipe a lone squad. Then again, the squad needs to be in the open, if it has any cover it survives, so it might be fine since in the late game yellow cover is common.

It still feels like there could be situations where rng will mean that the strafe does really well or poorly. For example on Langre on the northern munitions many shots targeted at squads in the munition capture zone seemed to hit the shrubbery.