[DBP] Commando Doctrine feedback thread

In order to receive better-quality feedback about commander changes, we will be creating individual threads for each revamped commander.

The reason for this is to draw the maximum amount of scrutiny to changed abilities so that we avoid going to the extremes of perpetuating useless commanders, or proliferating Artillery-Cover like commanders.

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Intent of the changes

Our general intent with Commando Doctrine changes is to create a commander option for Brits that want to play aggressively while relying on infantry-heavy builds.

Live-version Commander doctrine fails hard at delivering these expectations, since the only useful abilities (Mortar Cover and Bombing strike) seem to favour murdering enemies outright, rather than used as the tip of an aggressive spearhead.

To reiterate the changes, and the intend behind them.

Commando Glider

This abilty is now meant to promote an offensive push and take-over of an enemy sector. E.g., if you can decrew team-weapons, you can use the nearby glider to reinforce and hold that territory while waiting out for reinforcements.

Commandos have been upgraded to complement Infantry Sections and vice-versa. Commandos now rely a lot less on cheesy gammon bomb wipes, while being able to heal themselves-up after every successful ambush.

Smoke Raid
Now intended to allow players to arrange their infantry for a stealthy approach to enemy territory.

This ability is intended to be sustainable throughout the entire duration of the game. Along with glider drop, this is meant to be the hallmark of the doctrine. Ideally the effect of Smoke raid should be adjusted to justify a 50-75MU price-tag.

Assault
The doctrine is very MU-heavy. In order for a Brit player to make use of the doctrine, it is expected that they will have to cut down on other expenses (e.g., Bren guns). The ability is designed to give players to cut corners with respect to core-faction MU budget-cuts, without being overbearing if the Brit player does manage to fully-upkit their infantry.

The intend of redesigning this ability is to maximize benefits for players that cannot afford to upkit their Infantry Sections, without making it unbearable if the Brit player does find enough resources to get Double-Brens and spam assault.

The gains in stationary infantry units are, at best, marginal (+15% accuracy). Whereas, the gains in allowing rifle-equipped Infantry sections are pretty noticeable.

Ideally, the effects of Assault should be adjusted to justify its 90MU price-tag.

Mortar Cover

This ability has had auto-aim removed from it. It's intended to be less about wiping stationary team-weapons outright, and more about preventing the enemy from responding to a major assault (white phosphorus shells block visibility in addition to causing a heavy DoT effect on affected units).

This is meant to be somewhat affordable, but not too spammable to justify a price-tag of 125MU.

Bombing Run

This one has been redesigned to make it less of a "kill OKW trucks from afar" ability and more of an area denial tool to cause heavy enemy concentrations to disperse.

This should be a last-resort sim-city busting attack that justifies a 250-MU price-tag.

Conclusions

In order to master the use of the new Commando doctrine you should try to time your assaults together with any of the power-up abilities. In particular, the glider will allow you to create an impromptu reinforcement point to create a foothold. Prudent use of Smoke Raid will allow you to surprise your enemies and attack them when they are weak. You should probably keep off Bren guns, unless you are REALLY floating munitions.

I've really loved that you can actually call in commandosat a reasonable time and price for sure. I feel that the doctrine is somewhat overly muni heavy though, without anything to balance that out except for the commando callin, however, it does allow for not double brenning as sections with commandos in support allows for aggressive play and good trading without muni weapons, which frees up a lot for other uses. It'd be nice if in the original design they had put at least 2 things that weren't muni based though, as it just feels impossible to ever use everything in the doctrine.

The only thing that keep me using this commander is Bombing Run, which is a punishing ability against OKW truck yard. Now that it's been nerfed, time to throw the commander into trash bin.

Is the new Air Supremacy bug fixed ? The first sweeping recon is great but I did not feel like the damage is not worth the cost at all.

About Commandos change I feel like this tough guys is hard to deal with for Osteer, with new "Smoke Raid" and "Mortar Cover" support (heavy munition burnden I agree but trade for powerful ability is well ...).
Against OKW might be challenge after manage to hold off the Lusch rush and new Obers (they come almost the same time if OKW do the right things).

I felt that 390 for the commando to spawn almost anywhere on the map with a reinforce glider seems to be a little too strong, it could be less effective against OKW with the flak HQ but against Osteer it would be overwhelming.

I believe an increase of price for the commando to maybe price like 440 like the OKW's Falshiemjager would be a reasonable changes as the glider can also serve as a forward reinforce point

Commandos are simply too cost efficient.

With a "cost" of 350 (40mp? for reinforcement point) they are far superior to PG (baseline Ostheer) while they hit the field about the same time.

They can double equip Bren making very powerful at most ranges.

In addition they have the ability to fire with high accuracy while moving faster than other units that will lead to squad wipes in retreats.

In addition the commando mechanics twist the concept of ambush. Ambush means waiting for the enemy to come to place where one has set the ambush and it represented good with Ostheer camo where the unit has to remain stationary in cover and get a bonus for doing so.

Commandos on the other hand can actively move while cloaked and attack the enemy. That requires allot more map awareness from the player that has to deal with and thus one should have more time to react.

Commandos currently overlap with infiltration commandos who are much more suited for camo warfare since they are weaker.

Commandos could be redesigned to hit the field earlier but with other weapons like enfield without camo serving as the tip of the offensive power of UKF and being able to upgrade with Bren or piats or stens (mutually exclusive).

The sten upgrade would allow them to operate access to abilities and weapons for anti-garrison purposes like smoke grenades and incendiary grenades.

I liked the old smoke raid better, but it often blinded teammates field of view. I like how you now have to target an area, but commandos can no longer cloak in the open.

I liked the old smoke raid better, but it often blinded teammates field of view. I like how you now have to target an area, but commandos can no longer cloak in the open.

Smoke raid makes yellow patches of cover appear randomly over time in the vicinity of your squads, which you can use to navigate. It will feel a lot more involved now.

However, given that all squads now get access to hold fire, you can use it with the entire army, if you can afford the micro.

Commando report card:

Smoke Raid Operation
It was a bit lackluster when you could only target a zone in LoS, now that it can be put in FoW it's a lot more useful. Great against WM or a support-weapon heavy build.

Assault
Much more useful now that it effects all British Infantry. Great against OKW or an infantry-heavy build.

Commando Glider
Much more viable now that it costs much less. Glider as a reinforcement point is reasonable, as it's so massive and squishy a target that it can be easily denied. Commandos are much better now that their smoke grenades work as a vision-denying tool. However the icon might be misleading, it still shows the yellow cover shield.

Mortar Cover
Not as powerful as it was before, still very effective against garrisons or team weapon formations. However I would not say it is cost-effective.

If I could change this ability, I would make Mortar Cover a 4CP ability, affects a small 10m radius, and is priced near 75MU. Then reduce cooldown to 60 sec. This would make it an option for this commander to have access to artillery without the need for a static Mortar Pit.

Air Supremacy
I don't really see the purpose of having the recon plane and the Typhoon strafe. The ability is a targeted circle so you can't really point the recon flight in any particular way. The strafe is pretty useless, as it just does damage to the infantry which would get flattened by the bombing runs later on anyway. The bombs are still quite potent, incapable of one-shotting OKW trucks but can still serious damage to anything it hits.

If I could change this ability, I would remove the recon and the strafe, then decrease the cost of this ability to 200 or 180 MU.

Commando report card:

It's always nice to see AtomicRockets feedback!

Smoke Raid Operation
It was a bit lackluster when you could only target a zone in LoS, now that it can be put in FoW it's a lot more useful. Great against WM or a support-weapon heavy build.

Assault
Much more useful now that it effects all British Infantry. Great against OKW or an infantry-heavy build.

Our intent for those two abilities is to allow the Brit player to forego weapon upgrades for these ones, without becoming obnoxious if the Brit player has access to a ton of munitions (e.g., Assault Bren-blobs in live)

Commando Glider
Much more viable now that it costs much less. Glider as a reinforcement point is reasonable, as it's so massive and squishy a target that it can be easily denied. Commandos are much better now that their smoke grenades work as a vision-denying tool. However the icon might be misleading, it still shows the yellow cover shield.

The primary strength of the ability is establishing a strong foothold that will allow players to shift the front. If you haven't called a glider down next to a MedHQ when committing to a push vs it, you haven't seen the sheer strength of it yet.

I think I saw a match where Redxwings had this thing used next to his forward base.

Mortar Cover
Not as powerful as it was before, still very effective against garrisons or team weapon formations. However I would not say it is cost-effective.

If I could change this ability, I would make Mortar Cover a 4CP ability, affects a small 10m radius, and is priced near 75MU. Then reduce cooldown to 60 sec. This would make it an option for this commander to have access to artillery without the need for a static Mortar Pit.

One thing about this ability is that WP shells also block vision, and weaken teamweapons, which you can pick off from an ambush, or a glider drop.

A highly-concentrated barrage might also be too deadly (e.g., Rifle Company WP barrage). A more dispersed barrage still causes team weapons to relocate, since a stray WP shell will eat a lot of HP away; though it could suit the doctrine better.

When trying out the doctrine, I do feel that the vision blocking effects of smoke raid and mortar cover have a lot of overlap. I found I would use mortar cover most of the time, but that was before smoke raid v1.5 changes.

What you're suggesting then, is replacing the WP/HE barrage with an HE-only barrage that performs similar to the light artillery barrage from Jaeger Infantry?

In a sense if we put vision-imparing stuff to smoke raid and damage-dealing stuff to mortar-cover, then yes, the doctrine suddenly gets the benefits of a mobile mortar support (smoke/displacement).

The question, then, becomes how affordable it is to keep throwing resources, and for how long your infantry can stave off without weapon upgrades.

Air Supremacy
I don't really see the purpose of having the recon plane and the Typhoon strafe. The ability is a targeted circle so you can't really point the recon flight in any particular way. The strafe is pretty useless, as it just does damage to the infantry which would get flattened by the bombing runs later on anyway. The bombs are still quite potent, incapable of one-shotting OKW trucks but can still serious damage to anything it hits.

If I could change this ability, I would remove the recon and the strafe, then decrease the cost of this ability to 200 or 180 MU.

The recon flight and the strafe are mostly a friendly reminder for the enemy player to GTFO before the RAF comes. In a busy fight, it might be possible to ignore the minimap, and the results can be disastrous.

We want to encourage aggressive use of the doctrine through any means. Thus, we want to prevent people from OHK stuff from as far. Instead, players are expect to push together with the offmaps.

A 250MU bombing run is in a sweet spot of having accessible access to offmaps when needed (Brit concentration barrage is 250), while forcing you to make do with other means if necessary.

Our intent for those two abilities is to allow the Brit player to forego weapon upgrades for these ones, without becoming obnoxious if the Brit player has access to a ton of munitions (e.g., Assault Bren-blobs in live)

Personally I've never seen this happen, mainly because most of the game that I've played are 1v1 and 2v2. It is very effective, and it works well with Commandos, and I understood the notes correctly, IS can fire on the move just as effectively as if they were stationary (but not in cover)?

The primary strength of the ability is establishing a strong foothold that will allow players to shift the front. If you haven't called a glider down next to a MedHQ when committing to a push vs it, you haven't seen the sheer strength of it yet.

I think I saw a match where Redxwings had this thing used next to his forward base.

Ahh, I see what you mean; this means that it is a disposable forward reinforcement point. I had assumed that Gliders could only reinforce within friendly territory. I've always landed my gliders defensively; this could make aggressive Glider insertions an interesting strategy.

Yes, I've seen a match that Imperial Dane cast where RedxWings dropped Smoke Raid and an aggressive Glider at the same time. Map was Semoisky Winter if I recall correctly.

One thing about this ability is that WP shells also block vision, and weaken teamweapons, which you can pick off from an ambush, or a glider drop.

A highly-concentrated barrage might also be too deadly (e.g., Rifle Company WP barrage). A more dispersed barrage still causes team weapons to relocate, since a stray WP shell will eat a lot of HP away; though it could suit the doctrine better.

When trying out the doctrine, I do feel that the vision blocking effects of smoke raid and mortar cover have a lot of overlap. I found I would use mortar cover most of the time, but that was before smoke raid v1.5 changes.

What you're suggesting then, is replacing the WP/HE barrage with an HE-only barrage that performs similar to the light artillery barrage from Jaeger Infantry?

In a sense if we put vision-imparing stuff to smoke raid and damage-dealing stuff to mortar-cover, then yes, the doctrine suddenly gets the benefits of a mobile mortar support (smoke/displacement).

The question, then, becomes how affordable it is to keep throwing resources, and for how long your infantry can stave off without weapon upgrades.

What I mean here is to keep the same number of mortar shells (and the warhead types) per unit area, but have the ability affects a smaller radius. This would allow this ability to serve as both a tool to inflict MP bleed/ force reposition as a regular HE mortar barrage, and because it would drop a few WP shells, it would also serve the LoS-blocking role of a Smoke barrage.

Essentially, an extremely flexible barrage that could be used on cooldown (as long as you have enough munitions) to make up for the fact that you don't have a mortar pit. It also gives the Brits another (albeit doctrinal) answer to garrisons.

The recon flight and the strafe are mostly a friendly reminder for the enemy player to GTFO before the RAF comes. In a busy fight, it might be possible to ignore the minimap, and the results can be disastrous.

We want to encourage aggressive use of the doctrine through any means. Thus, we want to prevent people from OHK stuff from as far. Instead, players are expect to push together with the offmaps.

A 250MU bombing run is in a sweet spot of having accessible access to offmaps when needed (Brit concentration barrage is 250), while forcing you to make do with other means if necessary.

I see the purpose of the recon run and the strafe now. I also stand by the no-one-shot principle, so I agree with having less bombers.

Personally I've never seen this happen, mainly because most of the game that I've played are 1v1 and 2v2. It is very effective, and it works well with Commandos, and I understood the notes correctly, IS can fire on the move just as effectively as if they were stationary (but not in cover)?

With the ability on, Tommy on-the-move modifier goes from 0.35 to 0.7 (or 0.8 with the +15% accuracy on top). Tommies still suffer from a moving cooldown penalty too. This will give a serious on-the-move boost for Tommies.

Ahh, I see what you mean; this means that it is a disposable forward reinforcement point. I had assumed that Gliders could only reinforce within friendly territory. I've always landed my gliders defensively; this could make aggressive Glider insertions an interesting strategy.

Yes, I've seen a match that Imperial Dane cast where RedxWings dropped Smoke Raid and an aggressive Glider at the same time. Map was Semoisky Winter if I recall correctly.

Commando gliders changed in DBP to allow for reinforcement anywhere (assuming they didn't crash land)

What I mean here is to keep the same number of mortar shells (and the warhead types) per unit area, but have the ability affects a smaller radius. This would allow this ability to serve as both a tool to inflict MP bleed/ force reposition as a regular HE mortar barrage, and because it would drop a few WP shells, it would also serve the LoS-blocking role of a Smoke barrage.

Essentially, an extremely flexible barrage that could be used on cooldown (as long as you have enough munitions) to make up for the fact that you don't have a mortar pit. It also gives the Brits another (albeit doctrinal) answer to garrisons.

I guess we could try this.

Commandos: Much better. They don't seem cheap at 390 and drops behind the lines are very risky with such an expensive squad. Trouble is there is no reason to use IS when you have access to the Mandos. They're crap in comparison.

I predict nerfs however. The Wehr are quickly going to realise that the Brits will happily sacrifice a commando squad in an attempt to nick a decent mortar.

For instance someone clumped 2 wehr mortars together so I landed a glider behind them. Murdered them quickly, captured both using the reinforce from the glider. I lost the squad as but gained two mobile mortars and he rage quit about 10 minutes after. They'll be pissing and moaning until this is nerfed for sure...


Smoke Raid: How many IS do you think the Brits can afford with commandos costing almost 400 apiece? Not many and the idea that you are going to wander IS through smoke to be terrorised at short range is barmy. Yeah there's situations you might use it but why wouldn't you just use mortar cover instead which includes WP smoke and, you know, kills shit too? Very expensive for what it is in a very expensive commander for MU. Overall it's just flannel and will hardly be used.

Assault: If you are using Tommies to frontal assault then you aren't playing very well. This does, kinda, allow it but to what end? Far more likely you'll waste 90 MU to see your inf pinned by a 42 or merely beaten by any of the close combat infantry. Why not wait a CP and a few MU to mortar them? It isn't as though rushing upfield to find green cover really works any more so unless you don't like tanks or build MU caches I'm really not seeing it.

Mortar Cover: Big nerf. Still useful but lacks weight and is pretty iffy for the large number of munitions. More a light peppering than a covering though at least the WP smoke is useful. But from an entire sector and targeted for 150MU to a small area and random for 20MU less?

I love the way the cooldown has been reduced just so we can get some management bullshit to make it look like it hasn't been nerfed into the ground. Yeah chaps forget those two Brens we're going to fire mortar cover twice in in 2 minutes.

"Since the commander is extremely munitions based, most of the abilities have been reworked to provide a smaller, but more concentrated effect for an affordable cost."

Really who writes this crap? He's a mongtarded fuckwit who should have been Tony Blair's hand wavium coach. It's a nerf, it's been nerfed because Lelic. Be proud of who you are.

Air Superiority: Is now air tickling with pointlessness enshrined within. Was useful against the indestructible Shwerers, now it merely alerts them that you're about to try to take it out.

"We felt that UKF players needed a more caring, subtle and synergistic approach to carpet bombing, with due regard to the human rights of those on the receiving end and with reference to the hurt feelings of any children who may wail after losing a unit. We have therefore halved the power for three quarters of the (extreme) cost."

Ok, I might have made that up....

Overall its Commandos, commandos, commandos and maybe a mortar cover once every now and then. Which... Is.... Ok. Trouble is they've taken two of the best commanders, the two most unique and interesting ones, utterly ruined one and gutted this one to make it a one trick pony. It's a good pony, I like the pony, but it had several ponies before.

The commander isn't bad but the moment people twig that those ISGs and mortars are easy pickings the wailing wheraboos will demand the commandos are nerfed leaving nothing of any bloody use whatsoever in the entire commander. And it will happen, can't have the Axis having to face their own weapons as... that would clearly be unfair.

On a positive note it makes maps like Steppes very winnable for the UKF, and you can put together some pretty dank moves with a glider round the back and combinations of MC or assault. Well worth crashing a glider next to your 6 pdr line too just to replace losses.

I probably overused it so the whole glider round the back thing got a bit old though having mobile fire support never does get old for UKF.

So crash those gliders and nick their mortars, pak guns and 42s for all you're worth cos they'll nerf it next week.

Why the hell have they picked on the RE and Commando commanders though? They were both good in their own ways. Someone thought the Royal Artillery commander was too popular? Tactical support ( come to think of it I assume the crappy new CV is also in that making even more shit than before) post arty cover nerf was deemed too hard?

It feels... different... to Lelic's usual malign incompetence. Like things are being hit with a dull hammer as well as a nerf hammer. Don't get me wrong this is nowhere near as bad as the truly abysmal Royal Engineers shite but theres definitely a lack of imagination at work...

There's loads that could have been done rather than just making it all more anemic. How about a commander ability that gives to a chance to decrew an axis vehicle with commandos for instance? My god.. the lols... the wailing that would cause. The axis facing their own Panthers...