Why DBP is destined not to work

If one wants to debate specific of changes or weather allied get on top or axis with patch,one can do so in any of the many threads .

This is thread is simply trying to point out that the number of changes (that affect all stages of the game are so numerous) making it too difficult to get everything right.

I don't get that school of thought at all. All of the changes aren't just for shits and giggles but as a natural extension of the goals of the DBP to address known balance issues or are extremely unlikely to cause major balance changes on their own but are good for the game regardless (e.g. StuG MG buff). I'd love to see your list of changes that you think are truly questionable or likely for them to get wrong and seriously mess up balance. Off the top of my head I think maybe the Conscript or Jackson changes and maybe Ostwind could seriously go wrong somehow in some unforeseen way but I think the team also knows that. But either way it's pretty defeatist to think that it's going to be bad (especially if people actually play and offer feedback)

I don't get that school of thought at all. All of the changes aren't just for shits and giggles but as a natural extension of the goals of the DBP to address known balance issues or are extremely unlikely to cause major balance changes on their own but are good for the game regardless (e.g. StuG MG buff). I'd love to see your list of changes that you think are truly questionable or likely for them to get wrong and seriously mess up balance. Off the top of my head I think maybe the Conscript or Jackson changes and maybe Ostwind could seriously go wrong somehow in some unforeseen way but I think the team also knows that. But either way it's pretty defeatist to think that it's going to be bad (especially if people actually play and offer feedback)

If one only applies the FRP point changes, the repair speed changes, the commander changes and the bug fixes the impact will be substantial.

On top of that come a plethora of changes, from mainline infantry, to support weapons, to atgs ,to tanks, to artillery, to off map.

And on top of that a redesign of UKF.

A simply example is UKF trenches. When first introduced trenches for axis where CP 0. Relic then found them problematic and moved them to CP 2.

Now UKF get trenches from the start of the game that can be used by their allies in team games, it is highly probable that it will create issues.

Why should a 250mp 60muni squad not lose to a 280mp 120muni squad?

The differences in the cost of 30 mp and 60 munitions isn't that large and doesn't justify vet 3 bar blobs being unassailable. Plus any mp advantage an OKW player gains from having a cheaper unit is negated by USF having a free captain or lieutenant.

Hell why does a 300 mp sturmpio trade equally with a rifleman in a straight up fight when its 50 mp more, a higher differential than a rm and a volk.

The differences in the cost of 30 mp and 60 munitions isn't that large and doesn't justify vet 3 bar blobs being unassailable. Plus any mp advantage an OKW player gains from having a cheaper unit is negated by USF having a free captain or lieutenant.

Hell why does a 300 mp sturmpio trade equally with a rifleman in a straight up fight when its 50 mp more, a higher differential than a rm and a volk.

Because a) It is an engineer squad.
b)it cost only 20 mp more than riflemen.

Thats why it trades equally

Now UKF get trenches from the start of the game that can be used by their allies in team games, it is highly probable that it will create issues.

see I think that's the exact example of a non consequential change. If anything it's going to result in less trenches since Rrght now Brits mostly use them to camp key points since even if the point is recaptured the trench can't be used against them. It's a no-brainer for the Brit to dig in and stupid ( therefore another good change) .

Way I see it with patches so few and far between they need to fix as many things as possible and so far most of the changes pass the smell test for me

3) Oh no you must have made the mistake of thinking that
3.1) I care about jadgtiger, as a 1vs1 player
3.2) I care about your opinion...if you want to bullshit to the point that you are pretending they actually BUFFED heavy TD because of some AI adjustments I think there is some bias issue indeed that invalidate it.

What makes you think the community cares about your opinion? You can't honestly look in the mirror and see a shining example of objectivity and impartiality.

...

Way I see it with patches so few and far between they need to fix as many things as possible and so far most of the changes pass the smell test for me ...

What they need to do is break as little things as possible else win are going to have another
"JUNE 21st" patch issue, that the next 10-15 patch are still trying to fix...

If 90% of those changes are good and help the game (conscript changes, penal changes, maximum changes, commander revamp, tank combat balance, demos, nerf Ing cheese tactics and abilities (brace, scas, arty in fow,...)

Many QoL changes, bug fixes and so on.

The there are maybe few changes I don't agree with.

I tank it is much better to implement into the game a patch that moves the game 9 steps forward and 1 step back than to keep the game in a current state of balance limbo forver.

At least there will be new meta, new wind so players will come and play coh2 more.

Bigger strategical viability = entertaining game

If 90% of those changes are good and help the game (conscript changes, penal changes, maximum changes, commander revamp, tank combat balance, demos, nerf Ing cheese tactics and abilities (brace, scas, arty in fow,...)

Many QoL changes, bug fixes and so on.

The there are maybe few changes I don't agree with.

I tank it is much better to implement into the game a patch that moves the game 9 steps forward and 1 step back than to keep the game in a current state of balance limbo forver.

At least there will be new meta, new wind so players will come and play coh2 more.

Bigger strategical viability = entertaining game

That was what "JUNE 21st" patch attempted, the result? a broken game.

That was what "JUNE 21st" patch attempted, the result? a broken game.

If we would give you the command of the patch, sure we would have a broken game with Ostheer and OKW on top of everything else, your vision is completely biais in favor of one faction which is not an issue if you are willing to admit it and think yourself about it before posting. After all any human have preferencies, things we like more than others.

The patch team is doing a pretty decent job, as Hector mentioned it nobody will be 100% agreeing with them on what to change or what to keep but that's fair, it is how it works.

It is hard for them and us to see if something totally OP will eject from the patch, it would take a lot of time for that, too much time for the game life. But the Patch team is aware of it and so far any changes they did was with a recurring question " will this change promote any kind of abuse ". And this is the least they can do and us to help them to test the beta.

In term of comparison, I have DOTA2 installed on my Steam account. Valve do every 6 months a big patch that completely change the gameplay. Do you think there is just 1 patch and that's it? Every day there is a new patch to correct major and minor balance issues related to the patch, and they have hundred of thousand of people to play and test their stuff.

This is impossible to do a patch and call it done. They will be issues with the patch, for sure, because it how it works. And I can also tell you that from profesional experience as I'm software quality engineer. That's my job to test patches before they go live and there is always something you miss or that doesn't work the way it was supposed to...

...
If we would give you the command of the patch, sure we would have a broken game with Ostheer and OKW on top of everything else, your vision is completely biais in favor of one faction which is not an issue if you are willing to admit it and think yourself about it before posting. After all any human have preferencies, things we like more than others...

This is not about me nor about what your assumptions about "my" vision are. Its about being too ambitious in changes. The DBP completely redesigns UKF, commanders, makes serious changes to OKW and redesigns ATGs.

The changes of getting all this changes right are very slim.

...It is hard for them and us to see if something totally OP will eject from the patch, it would take a lot of time for that, too much time for the game life.
...

Then they should start with needed changes that are simply and introduce major changes slowly.
bug fixes, commander redesign, FRP and repair speed are all changes with a big impact. One can stop there evaluate these changes and then move on.

That was what "JUNE 21st" patch attempted, the result? a broken game.

The patch preview was fine but the at the last minute relic chaged usf mortar from normal to OP level, created millions of bugs and ninjas and scrapped most of changes. So we ended up with OKW without fuel penalty and with OP volks but veterancy or tank fuel costs wasn't changed at all.

And so on and so forth

The patch preview was fine but the at the last minute relic chaged usf mortar from normal to OP level, created millions of bugs and ninjas and scrapped most of changes. So we ended up with OKW without fuel penalty and with OP volks but veterancy or tank fuel costs wasn't changed at all.

And so on and so forth

Penal where OP a hell
USF mortar was OP even in the preview

VG ST44 are still op
T-34 is op
and what make you think that there will not be the same problems with bugs ninjas changes this time? and so on so forth.

This is not about me nor about what your assumptions about "my" vision are. Its about being too ambitious in changes. The DBP completely redesigns UKF, commanders, makes serious changes to OKW and redesigns ATGs.

The changes of getting all this changes right are very slim.

And so what ?

LoL does this every season. And guess what, it is the reason why their playerbase is so strong compared to other Mobas.

People do not need perfectly balanced game. They need

a) relatively balanced game so they have the feeling that they can outplay the opponent
b) many options so other doesn't turn into stale boring meta - penals + shermans vs luchs + commando panther
c) big swings in meta so they get the feeling of a new game.


Game will never be balanced at 100% it is impossible. It just need to be balanced to the extend that player factors plays very important role in the match - game I'd not decided before it even began.


And I think dev team is doing a great job at all these 3 points I mentioned up there.

Diverse game play with many options and low cheese is the key.

Penal where OP a hell
USF mortar was OP even in the preview

VG ST44 are still op
T-34 is op
and what make you think that there will not be the same problems with bugs ninjas changes this time? and so on so forth.

Better throw a dice again, wishing for a better number than staying on a number 2 forever. Don't you think?

Better throw a dice again, wishing for a better number than staying on a number 2 forever. Don't you think?

No, actually I think that instead of completely redesign the game everyone now and then, long standing issues should be fixed first and then see what else can be improved.

For instance the vet abilities of EFA need an overhaul like 3 years ago , while a great number of commander abilities need to be looked at.

The patch trend so far is, something becomes OP everyone abuses it, its nerfed to oblivion yet another thing if buffed to becomes OP then rinse and repeat, while a great number of simple issues that could greatly improve the game remains unfixed.

No, actually I think that instead of completely redesign the game everyone now and then, long standing issues should be fixed first and then see what else can be improved.

For instance the vet abilities of EFA need an overhaul like 3 years ago , while a great number of commander abilities need to be looked at.

The patch trend so far is, something becomes OP everyone abuses it, its nerfed to oblivion yet another thing if buffed to becomes OP then rinse and repeat, while a great number of simple issues that could greatly improve the game remains unfixed.

Because Demo changes are nothing.

Because Useless Commanders Revamp is nothing

Because OKW leight Smoke and Incing nade is nothing

Because Jackson changes are nothing

Because giving Echelons mines is nothing

Becuase finally making Brits a viable faction without cheesing is nothing

...

The patch trend so far is, something becomes OP everyone abuses it, its nerfed to oblivion yet another thing if buffed to becomes OP then rinse and repeat, while a great number of simple issues that could greatly improve the game remains unfixed.

The recent patches have fixed more than they broke. Yes, they overshot on usf mortars and penals but the game as a whole improved. This is how a patching process works. You adjust something and sometimes you get it just right and sometimes you miss the mark and then you readjust.

Sometimes it wasn't even the patch itself that broke something. Take the over performing dishka for example. No one really used it before the lack of a decent suppression platform caused by the adjustment of the maxim brought to light how insanely strong the dishka is.

This patch does not redesign the game, it makes adjustments to it. No unit has a new role. OKW is not suddenly UKF

The notion that every patch broke more or an equal amount to what it fixed is far from what we have seen.

The recent patches have also seen bug fixing section and quality of life improvements that rivalled the length of balance changes. If you have a list of bugs or a list of "a great number of simple issues" easily fixed, why allude to it and not post it, so the balance team could take a look at it?

The discussion in the stuka thread on friendly fire damage modifiers of axis artillery shows perfectly how things like this can come to the teams attention and then make it into the patch (probably 1.5 according to Miragefla).

Sometimes it wasn't even the patch itself that broke something. Take the over performing dishka for example. No one really used it before the lack of a decent suppression platform caused by the adjustment of the maxim brought to light how insanely strong the dishka is.

Have to correct you.

Dushka was ninjabuffed in 2016 June 21st for reasons only squirrels know.

Since then it had 70DPS (close) 40 (mid) 20 (far) against all squads and instant supression

Since then you couls walk dushka against set-upped mg42, wait until you get pinned and still wipe the floor with mg42

Stop treating changes as the number of lines on the paper. This doesn't work here; and this doesn't work like that in real life either.

agree, the amount of people who didn't even try the patch once and still give their review on it is HUGE.

instead of just looking at stats and numbers, people should dll the patch, try the most retarded cheesy tactics and see if something changed (better or worst), but just saying "This particular change is wrong" is retarded..

If one wants to debate specific of changes or weather allied get on top or axis with patch,one can do so in any of the many threads .

This is thread is simply trying to point out that the number of changes (that affect all stages of the game are so numerous) making it too difficult to get everything right.

The truth is you got no other choice than to accept the whole patch or refuse it and play alone, Mr.smith got chosen to make the balance change because of his general knowledge on game balance, you just don't have the knowledge required to see if "everything goes right".
they are not going to make one change at a time each week to let you the time to see if it suits you.