Replay Feedback for December Balance Patch

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  Hector OrangePest juzubillaga KIMBO MAD SLICE

  KrypticRTS Kpen97 Glorious Famous Noob SexPistole Vipper

  Finally a 4V4 Game in DBP

  by: __deleted__ map: Steppes

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- Ele is worth a shit now. Su85 clashed against it, always penned ele. Ele never hit Su85 and thus dealt no damage. Ele dies, Su85 survived. Might have been bad luck idk, but ele feels meh

I saw that game and the reason why the su won was because it was shooting the elefant for a good while from the flank from mid range, not the front where the frontal armour would have kicked in. By the time the ele was actually finally rotated it was mis-microed since the two shots it got off against the su were done while moving (50% accuracy penalty, rotation is movement). I think this game was a very poor illustration of how the ele performs. The match in general is not a good proxy as Kryptics didn't do much other than building pios and s-mine fields

Some of the observations seem accurate non the less as in the case of for the motherland (maybe remove sprint from it?).

I saw that game and the reason why the su won was because it was shooting the elefant for a good while from the flank from mid range, not the front where the frontal armour would have kicked in. By the time the ele was actually finally rotated it was mis-microed since the two shots it got off against the su were done while moving (50% accuracy penalty, rotation is movement). I think this game was a very poor illustration of how the ele performs. The game in general is very bad as Kryptics didn't do much other than building pios and s-mine fields

I know that ele was rotating and retarded in general, but when these 2 vehicles finally clashed then su85 penetrated its frontal armor 3 times in row and ele missed 2 times in row. Ele wasnt moving when firing first 2 rounds

I know that ele was rotating and retarded in general, but when these 2 vehicles finally clashed then su85 penetrated its frontal armor 3 times in row and ele missed 2 times in row. Ele wasnt moving when firing first 2 rounds

I'll check out the replay again and check, I thought it was moving. They didn't nerf accuracy, so this would have happened in the normal version as well though.

Note I am going through the replays. I have a few casted where a few changes are looked over when they popped up. Hopefully the upcoming ones will have more of the changes put into play.

made Jackson better was a bad failure...why?

compare jackson with JP4:

jackson is super fast, has a turrent, high pene and is cheaper...its a flanker td...useable in flanking and urban citys...

jp4 has one big problem: its low speed and has no turrent...it has bad accuracy while rotation (jackson has not this problem)
and is easy flankable by faster tanks/ turrent tanks...


so it can´t fast enough run away like a jackson ...and once it got flank..its dead....a jackson can maybe destroy the enemy while it got flanked...

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  Hector Frost z żelaza

  SexPistole Fortune

  USF is quite potent in 2's

  by: Frost map: Vaux Farmlands

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ISU 152

ISU152 is very potent right now, I think it is in its golden spot right now. Strong vs infantry and punishes careless play a lot but is not a one-squad wipe RNG cannon. I like consistentency and this tank is consistent now.

Against tanks it is very good too, but only with AT rounds (can pen KT without problems right now). With AI rounds it fails to pen a Puma .

The tank is in golden spot for me right now, requires a lot of careful play to be put into a good use but it turns into a beast if the player knows what is he doing.

It is easily flankable too, so unless the player is very clever and places tons of mines a single Panther can counter it.


Demolition Charge

Demo is in perfect place for me right now. Affordable, you can place them without burning your whole munnition stockpile.

For Axis player they are much more easily avoided. You can either bring a minesweeper with your capping forces or be prepared to pay attention to your capping soldiers to not lose anyone. As long as you are careful, you will not lose anyone.

Soviet player on the other hand can now play mind games with demos. He can give his enemy a feeling that nothing is on the point, let him decap it, then attack somewhere else and divide enemys attention. The press the trigger and BOOM .

Perfect mind tool right now, it has both counterplay (being careful) and counterplay to counterplay (dividing attention) and also final counter (sweeper). Brings a lot of fun for both sides right now. Love using them and playing against them.

Jagtiger

Feels meh. Every time it showed up it was eaten by P47 rocket run + mark target. That poor little thing is so slow and clumpy that it cannot anything. Yet his range isnt big enough to fight off tanks from afar.

It lacks any AI (like ISU152) to make it decent in fights where infantry isnt present.

Suggestion: Give it better maneuability and decrease its armor OR Make AI rounds for free with big cooldown (like Su76). This way it will be much more useful. Now its but a sitting duck, at least was in the match.

Make the vehicle more entertaining to use, right now no one would build it. I would rather go Kingtiger and JP4 thank Jagtiger.

Guards

These poor guys suck for their price, buff them please. Give them a defined AT/AI role

SUGGESTION:

Starts with no weapons for 300 mp.
2 upgrades:

AT role (90 munnition) - 4xPTRS with ability focus aim abilities
(focus aim/rapid fire - TOGGLE - 10 munnition per toggle, PTRS fires far more accuratly, targeting infantry without problems at the cost of low rate of fire/PTRS fires fast but with poor accuracy, harming tanks wit ease but being unable to hit infantry most of the times)

AI role (90 munnition) - 3x DP lmg with button ability.
Makes infantry far stronger in AI role.

Stuka zu Fuss

is in a good place now, if it overextends it is easily killed - I killed it easily with a nice t34/76 small dive when it overextended too much in order to wipe my snipers by spraying rockets into their retreat patch .


Overall

The game way entertaining for me as a player and without all the cancer present before I have enjoyed the match very much. Game feels in a much better state than it was before.

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  Hector Frost z żelaza

  SexPistole Fortune

  British grenadiere's lines

  by: Frost map: Road to Kharkov

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Mortar pit

is still cancer much much. Might be because of map campyness nature.

Panther

is in a golden spot right now. With buffed HMGs it can hurt infantry with ease, making acquiring veterancy much easier - so veterancy nerf was a good thing.

I like new Panther and would consider it buying in the lategame, even in 1v1.

Ostheer

With Otheer tanks and tehing changes the faction finally feels like a vcoh1 Wehrmach - versatile faction that grows strong as gmae progress with big variety of strong (but not OP) tanks with good veterancy supported by Strong but not OP vetted infantry. Like the faction.

Overall

The game turned into cancerfest and heavy artillery was needed to break British defensive positions. Might be beause of map nature.

It lacks any AI (like ISU152) to make it decent in fights where infantry isnt present.

That's where you're wrong. It has a 95 range HE barrage now available at Vet0.

Mortar pit

is still cancer much much. Might be because of map campyness nature.

It's probably still cancer because one of the mortars still has 120 range autoattack. The copious amount of back-and-forth for v1.3 meant that some bugs crept in.

Ostheer

With Otheer tanks and tehing changes the faction finally feels like a vcoh1 Wehrmach - versatile faction that grows strong as gmae progress with big variety of strong (but not OP) tanks with good veterancy supported by Strong but not OP vetted infantry. Like the faction.

If you can afford to try it. Let us know how the Ostwind feels. In particular how it performs vs light vehicles (with penetration and range buff), vs infantry and vs AT guns.

Overall

The game turned into cancerfest and heavy artillery was needed to break British defensive positions. Might be beause of map nature.

See above for Mortar Pits. The change to mortar pit range are probably not there yet. The primary reason for toning down the range at this point is to see how it behaves with reduced LeIG range.

Once again, thanks for testing this out for us!

That's where you're wrong. It has a 95 range HE barrage now available at Vet0.



It's probably still cancer because one of the mortars still has 120 range autoattack. The copious amount of back-and-forth for v1.3 meant that some bugs crept in.



If you can afford to try it. Let us know how the Ostwind feels. In particular how it performs vs light vehicles (with penetration and range buff), vs infantry and vs AT guns.



See above for Mortar Pits. The change to mortar pit range are probably not there yet. The primary reason for toning down the range at this point is to see how it behaves with reduced LeIG range.

Once again, thanks for testing this out for us!

oh and ostwind. Almost forgot about it.

Whe hulled down it performs like a goddamn machine gun turret. Range like AT guns, fire rate 2 shots per second. Not OP at all. Only hulled variant is too strong imo

made Jackson better was a bad failure...why?

compare jackson with JP4:

jackson is super fast, has a turrent, high pene and is cheaper...its a flanker td...useable in flanking and urban citys...

jp4 has one big problem: its low speed and has no turrent...it has bad accuracy while rotation (jackson has not this problem)
and is easy flankable by faster tanks/ turrent tanks...


so it can´t fast enough run away like a jackson ...and once it got flank..its dead....a jackson can maybe destroy the enemy while it got flanked...

Buffed Jackson is no longer "cheaper" than the JP4.

oh and ostwind. Almost forgot about it.

Whe hulled down it performs like a goddamn machine gun turret. Range like AT guns, fire rate 2 shots per second. Not OP at all. Only hulled variant is too strong imo

I always use ostwind & hull down. Though, somehow I forgot new range & old hulldown.

Hulldown range could probably be retouched (especially with the new Panther). But before we go mucking about with obscure doctrinal options, let's make sure that the core unit is OK.

Got some 2's replays as well, would be good if someone's looked at these because they are pretty decent

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  Finndeed Frost z żelaza

  Fortune SexPistole

  [DBP] Heavy Tankovyj Corp

  by: Frost map: Moscow Outskirts

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This is about 2 snipers, cons + penals mix, some m3's, lefhs. Rest is in describe

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  Finndeed Frost z żelaza

  Fortune Lt.Baumy

  [DBP] Aritllery showcase

  by: Frost map: Semoskiy Winter

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Less intereting but you can look if you want

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  Finndeed Frost z żelaza

  Fortune Lt.Baumy

  [DBP] Churchills on the hunt

  by: Frost map: Rails and Metal

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this one is pretty neat, shows how brits are tough to play against, OP abilities and Fortune showed how new meta looks in team games xD

Rest games with me got Hector above


One thought: is there a possibility to remove Volk's ability to build sandbags? I mean, sturmpios would be more reasonable to do so, volks are too potent once they can heal themselves, bulding green cover and have all the nades. It should be done same as Ostheers have.

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  Array

  猪星人的崛起

  DBP 1.3 OKW vs SOV Langres

  by: Array map: Langreskaya

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Replay of Sov vs OKW on Langres.

1-2 interesting things.

Firstly the Kubel - very early in this game I was capping with a sov engineer in green cover whilst my opponent was firing with his Kubel at quite significant range - all of a sudden the Kubel takes three significant hits (from the engineers) losing much of its hp - extreme RNG?

Secondly some SOV ppsh vs Upgraded volks late in the game.

Hello Guys,

by the tipp from JohnSmith, i post this replay here:

Youtube link (casted by Woodstock(thx)): https://youtu.be/UJTo7-U-YYY

replay-file: https://www.coh2.org/replay/65544/3v3-dbp-1-3/page/1#post_id638603


JeSper - Ost
Rhiannsu - OSt
Blackout- OKW


Ullumulu- Sov
Vipper - brits
Ted - Sov


cons supportet the whole allie army very effective in my eyes whith oooruaah, flame nades, panzer nades and ...at least a double wilding mg42 equiped cons

Please keep this thread for replay submission and discussion, queries about the patch alone should go in this thread: https://www.coh2.org/topic/64970/december-balance-preview

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  Luciano Tobis Hon3ynuts

  VonIvan Thanatos .:PSG:. RedxWings

  3v3 in DBP 1.3

  by: Hon3ynuts map: Unknown

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2 big things stood out

Volk Grenades. Significantly different with a timer...you can actually dodge them now. They were slightly less useful than regular grenades, but there were few buildings on this map and not a lot of cover camping.

This compeled me to build infantry that wasn't volks.

Forward retreat point Is this supposed to make me pay extra to reinforce nearby? I didn't notice the difference. I was watching my manpower as i pressed r for my units didn't seem to make me pay more than 40 mp for obers.
The cooldown is incredibly long. I don't know if its worth a whoopping 300 manpower anymore, especially if i was actually paying extra for reinforcing.

Other than that the only other thing i really noticed was the ober lmg and recruitment costs. They are still really good, possibly the strongest infantry unit in the game. My obers got 79 kills total for two squads, i saw a shock squad had like under 20 kills Pls take under advisement.

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  Luciano Tobis Hon3ynuts

  VonIvan Thanatos .:PSG:. RedxWings

  3v3 in DBP 1.3

  by: Hon3ynuts map: Unknown

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Forward retreat point Is this supposed to make me pay extra to reinforce nearby? I didn't notice the difference. I was watching my manpower as i pressed r for my units didn't seem to make me pay more than 40 mp for obers.
The cooldown is incredibly long. I don't know if its worth a whoopping 300 manpower anymore, especially if i was actually paying extra for reinforcing.

There no MP penalty only reinforcement time.

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  Hector TAB Australian Magic

  SturmTigerCobra DonnieChan

  [caster] 2v2 epic long DBP WFA game

  by: __deleted__ map: Vaux Farmlands

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An epic hour lasting 2v2 game in DBP environment.

I cannot measure all changes per se because do not feel competent enough to do so. But the game played very well for both sides and the balance felt very good for me. Actually the players were deciding the outcome of the game, not a One Click Wonder Abilities and Axis Wunderwaffe.

About singular units:

Jackson

This unit is in a golden spot for me right now, see no reason to buff/nerf it any further.

Elephant

Right now a very niche unit because it only serves as a tank counter, yet USF only has paper armour so it is not very needed. Maybe against heavy tanks or as a counterpick to ISU152 doctrines. Otherwise sticking with Stugs is adviced.


Brummbaar

Seems a bit OP now with tier4 changes. I would suggest to decrease its armor to make it more counterable by medium tanks (so you dont need Jackson to counter it) or decrease its aoe a bit (buff mgs to compesate) so it is not so squadwipey

The Meta

I think that the tank meta will shift from medium tanks and generalist/specialist heavy tanks into specialist AI tanks (like Scott or Brumbaar) and dedicated tank destroyers.

The reason behind this is that medium tanks are hardcountered by dedicated tank destroyers and so are the heavy generalist tanks. Yet they cannot bleed infantry as much as dedicated AI tanks.

Dedicated AI tanks are strong enough to bleed enemy army and then pull back from enemys TDs. Tank destroyers are now strong enough to hold the line against each other and hardcounter medium tanks so dedicated AI tanks which are nimble enough to escape or strong enough to take a severe beating seemed like a better option. At least in this scenario.

Overall the unchanged cheese remained the same.

Smith, I think you should watch this one, because it is a good match that pretty much shows you how the DBP 2v2 meta on open maps will look like

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  Hector TAB Australian Magic

  SturmTigerCobra DonnieChan

  [caster] 2v2 epic long DBP WFA game

  by: __deleted__ map: Vaux Farmlands

  1

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An epic hour lasting 2v2 game in DBP environment.

I cannot measure all changes per se because do not feel competent enough to do so. But the game played very well for both sides and the balance felt very good for me. Actually the players were deciding the outcome of the game, not a One Click Wonder Abilities and Axis Wunderwaffe.

About singular units:

Jackson

This unit is in a golden spot for me right now, see no reason to buff/nerf it any further.

Elephant

Right now a very niche unit because it only serves as a tank counter, yet USF only has paper armour so it is not very needed. Maybe against heavy tanks or as a counterpick to ISU152 doctrines. Otherwise sticking with Stugs is adviced.


Brummbaar

Seems a bit OP now with tier4 changes. I would suggest to decrease its armor to make it more counterable by medium tanks (so you dont need Jackson to counter it) or decrease its aoe a bit (buff mgs to compesate) so it is not so squadwipey

The Meta

I think that the tank meta will shift from medium tanks and generalist/specialist heavy tanks into specialist AI tanks (like Scott or Brumbaar) and dedicated tank destroyers.

The reason behind this is that medium tanks are hardcountered by dedicated tank destroyers and so are the heavy generalist tanks. Yet they cannot bleed infantry as much as dedicated AI tanks.

Dedicated AI tanks are strong enough to bleed enemy army and then pull back from enemys TDs. Tank destroyers are now strong enough to hold the line against each other and hardcounter medium tanks so dedicated AI tanks which are nimble enough to escape or strong enough to take a severe beating seemed like a better option. At least in this scenario.

Overall the unchanged cheese remained the same.

Smith, I think you should watch this one, because it is a good match that pretty much shows you how the DBP 2v2 meta on open maps will look like

You forget that the brumbar has no turrent, is slow and has not the range from a scott...

so when it need to stay at the front and turns slowly the chassie...it must have more armor/ HP...else its usless...

Jackson is not in the golden spot...its in the top spot...its little bit to much to have a fats TD with turrent, good Dmg, high range, very good pene, and now high HP...

2 of them...and no armor have no chance to hold the front