British Emplacement Brace Counterplay Ideas

Edit:

I was never making this post about balance or winning, per se. It was just that I personally found the bracing mechanic of British emplacements to be the least fun in the game and desperately wanted a reliable and satisfying counter-mechanic.

However, there is apparently no current way to differentiate between a regular emplacement and a braced one in target tables (according to Mr Smith's post below), so my preferred recommendations are completely moot unless somebody finds a way to redesign the ability from the ground up.

Intro/TL;DR

Edit: Me no like British emplacement brace. No fun because no counterplay.

So here's my list of ways to potentially improve brace counter-play:

(I'm not suggesting them all together, just brainstorming potential ideas in order of preference)

• Make brace a defense against only artillery via target table.
  
  Not 100% realistic, but would be still be highly intuitive from a gameplay perspective. Requires British player to actually defend against ground units.
  
  
• Introduce one or more 'costs' to the ability:
  - While making the braced emplacement stronger against artillery, make them more vulnerable to close-range weapons like flamethrowers and grenades.
  My preferred choice. Rewarding and intuitive gameplay
  
  - Have a small cooldown period afterwards where brace no longer applies but the weapons are not yet recrewed.
  More likely to have balance implications
  
  - Maybe a small munitions cost.
  The weakest cost and my least favourite. Would mostly make British players angry at their lack of options, I suspect.
  
  
• Make brace automatically spread to all nearby emplacements within a certain radius. Less micro to defend against artillery strikes, but also shuts down sim city to ground attacks.
  
  Something of a micro buff to British players, but might reduce sim city clustering? That said, they usually brace everything anyway (against artillery), so this one is more of a random thought bubble.
  

What do you think? Did I miss any good points in old threads?

You could also make brace less effective vs flame weapons, howitzers and call in artillery since logically those are the supposed counters

The joke are really their costs.

400 mp for 2 mortars with the widest range and dmg output.
400? the cheap ost mortar costs 240 mp....butr the will have no chance against a british emplacement...and bleed your manpower like hell if u trie this.


30 fuel for a bofors??
30 fuel u get only 222 or a half luchs. yeah...thats really cheap and doesnt let comes your tanks later

Remember that the mortar pit is really the only non doctrinal garrison clearing tool that UKF has. The WASP can not preform well when there is items such as vet 0 cloaked Raketenwerfer and how far fausts and even all snares reach. In the live game, not killing or not able to kill the mortar pit could be game ending while losing the mortar pit could be game ending as well.

This is why I am in favor of a weaker, cheaper emplacements. In the mod I made, this what the mortar pit is replaced with.

Mortar Position
Stats:
Show Spoiler

This makes feel like a bunker/fighting position (it really is). Losing it is like oh well, while not losing much impact. Additionally, since it is much cheaper, it can become a better garrison clearing tool since it could be built everywhere.

Snip

Interesting. I could definitely see that working a lot better.

So do you still keep brace? I personally feel that balance can't be properly addressed until brace either works as a gameplay element or is removed (hence my post).

Remember that the mortar pit is really the only non doctrinal garrison clearing tool that UKF has. The WASP can not preform well when there is items such as vet 0 cloaked Raketenwerfer and how far fausts and even all snares reach. In the live game, not killing or not able to kill the mortar pit could be game ending while losing the mortar pit could be game ending as well

You mean other than demo charges, snipers, grenades, gammon bombs and light gammon bombs?

You mean other than demo charges, snipers, grenades, gammon bombs and light gammon bombs?

doctrinal, not very effective, who uses its, who even uses that and too late, and doctrinal

Interesting. I could definitely see that working a lot better.

So do you still keep brace? I personally feel that balance can't be properly addressed until brace either works as a gameplay element or is removed (hence my post).

Maybe a weaker version, but I am not sure. For my mod, I was more focused on the offense and coverage to think how precisely to adjust brace or what would be a good balance for it. It is hard to balance some things when no one gives feed back. But with DBP, I am not really concern with it at the moment. Once or if the DBP is live, I am probably going to re-due my mod or incorporate all the changes in which there is a lot of bug fixes for it.

You mean other than demo charges, snipers, grenades, gammon bombs and light gammon bombs?

First is doctrinal and it does not clear. It destroys.
Second is of course non-doc but being forced to use sniper just to clear buildings is rather bad design.
Grenades don't clear buildings apart from HMGs.
Gammon bombs destroy buildings instead of clearing and come in mid/late game.

The primary issue with the mortar pit is the insanely long autoattack range (which is unfortunately so because of LeIG autoattack range). Brace is just the cherry on top that ensures that you suffer regardless of whether you close the distance to the emplacement or not.

The newly-introduced long-range smoke barrage means that Mortar Pit can remain valuable assets, even if placed all the way to the rear-lines. They just won't have to directly murder people all the damn time.

The Mortar Pit sits safely in the rear. When you have to attack, the pit smokes the location, and Tommies can use their grenades. With the garrison changes not making grenades so fucking useless, you might start seeing a lot more of those tactics.

If the Pit can be safely stowed in the rear, there's less of a case for keeping Brace duration to such long values.

• Make brace a defense against only artillery via target table.
  
  Not 100% realistic, but would be still be highly intuitive from a gameplay perspective. Requires British player to actually defend against ground units.
  
• Introduce one or more 'costs' to the ability:
  - While making the emplacement stronger against artillery, make them more vulnerable to close-range weapons like flamethrowers or grenades.
  

That would be ideal.

Unfortunately target tables operate on unit types, and unit types cannot be changed dynamically during the course of the game. At least, I don't think it's possible.

Rewarding and intuitive gameplay

- Have a small cooldown period afterwards where brace no longer applies but the weapons are not yet recrewed.

That would be a great idea vs the Bofors mainly. Otherwise, for the Mortar Pit, this means that brace foiled an attack, at which point it's no longer necessary.

Also, if the UKF player only has one mortar pit, they're now screwed, as bracing will be suicide. The only way they can defend against artillery spam is if they spam more mortar pits.

So, in the end that's going to incentivise sim city more rather than discentivise it.

Works for realism and gameplay

- Maybe a small munitions cost.
The weakest solution and definitely not adequate on its own

It's simple and still better than nothing at least.

• Make brace automatically spread to all nearby emplacements within a certain radius. Less micro to defend against artillery strikes, but also shuts down sim city to ground attacks.
  
  Requires consideration from British player over cost/benefit, especially if combined with above solutions.
  

A bit gimmicky. However, even singular mortar pits can be annoying too.

What do you think? Did I miss any good points in old threads?

Maybe disable incoming repairs while brace is active? The two sim city commanders primarily operate on the basis of bracing allows your emplacements to top up in health, while you aren't risking Sappers doing that.

If you also disable AI repair engineers from replacing their own god damn Forward Assembly, you could at least bleed the camper by destroying the assembly, and then gunning down the emplacements themselves.

make the cost higher...this low costs are on of the main problem. if u managed it to destroy this thing...its easily rebuildable...cause its really to cheap.

400 mp is not that much....compare it with 2 ost mortars / 2 ISGs....and than add the manpower bleed it cost after callin/ counterattack / arty attack/ mortar counter....

early on, attack with flame half track and if he braces, either kill its support, or pull back.

Hit them with ATG, force a brace, use the window to kill some of his inf off.

Use things like flame mortar or flame artillery once the brace is about to wear off.

Its all about forcing him to use it with something, then waiting with a good indirect fire to hit it when its vulnerable.

In addition one could also provide more tools specialized in dealing with emplacements like, FMHT, Brumbar, ST, Stuka dive bombing, that could for instance be less affected by brace.

Regardless one should remove the selfrepair ability of the forward assembly.

early on, attack with flame half track and if he braces, either kill its support, or pull back.

Hit them with ATG, force a brace, use the window to kill some of his inf off.

Use things like flame mortar or flame artillery once the brace is about to wear off.

Its all about forcing him to use it with something, then waiting with a good indirect fire to hit it when its vulnerable.

What this man says is true. Depends on what faction you play. You have to remember if he's investing in mortar pits and sim city, he isn't building much of an army. So when you wipe out his sim city its basically game.

Ostheer: Flamer Halftrack, Mortar Halftrack flame rounds(doct), Two Mortars firing then moving, AT Gun, puma(doct). As he said, the idea is to force him to brace, and after the brace wears off you hit em hard(preferably with fire). I can say that Ostheer probably has the most trouble with sim city of axis factions.

OKW: They have flame nades, Leigs, stealthed AT guns, pumas. OKW also has some insane commander munitions call ins that can wipe sim city off the map. Sim city should never be an issue against OKW.

Ostheer:...Mortar Halftrack flame rounds(doct), .

MHT is less effective than you think.

First off all the weapon can easily miss the shot (scatter) if you fire without vision
Second a un-braced MP will drop to around 1/3 HP even if it get a direct hit
Third a braced MP will laugh at wasting 45 munition in causing around 25% damage.

Unfortunately target tables operate on unit types, and unit types cannot be changed dynamically during the course of the game. At least, I don't think it's possible.

Ah bugger. I didn't consider that, and it was pretty much the linchpin pin of my whole idea

Alright, so much for elegance (unless Relic could be convinced to improve their game engine for such a noble cause? ). I guess this calls for a more bastardised solution. Mortar pits definitely seem like the most important part to resolve anyway.

Ægion's idea of the cheaper and more 'disposable' single-crew mortar pit definitely sounds like it has appeal. It reduces the murder factor, takes up less space, and maybe then it could be permanently resistant to artillery attacks instead of having brace?

That way, it's still guaranteed to win against any other mortar unit in a pissing match (asymmetrical balance and all that), but is vastly more vulnerable to a dive if not actively defended against ground units, and won't end the game if destroyed at a price closer to a standard squad.

Strategy suggestions

Strategy suggestions

Valid tactics, for sure. The problem is that it is so much work against something that requires no micro to attack, and a single button click to defend. It's just completely disproportionate, high risk (especially the more emplacement types they have) and not very fun.

In addition one could also provide more tools specialized in dealing with emplacements like, FMHT, Brumbar, ST, Stuka dive bombing, that could for instance be less affected by brace.

As Mr Smith says, specialisation probably isn't technically possible where brace is concerned

make the cost higher...this low costs are on of the main problem.

Well, some people beg to differ But worst case scenario, I wouldn't be too opposed to just pricing them out of meta

Valid tactics, for sure. The problem is that it is so much work against something that requires no micro to attack, and a single button click to defend. It's just completely disproportionate, high risk (especially the more emplacement types they have) and not very fun.

The micro to mortar his mortar is selecting your mortars and telling them to barrage his. If he isn't microing then his mortars won't auto attack yours if your troops are around. So he would have to micro his mortar pit to mortar your mortar. So you counter by moving and barraging his mortar, so then he stops barraging that position to counter your new position. Sounds like it goes back and forth imo.

Technically some flame stuff barely requires any micro to shutdown British emplacements, like the mortar halftracks flame round straight up destroys emplacements at the click of "Select unit, use round".

I can agree it may not be fun and goes against the nature of the game, but I feel like a lot of stuff isn't "fun". Getting blasted by light vehicles as they dance around your infantry and zerg your base isn't fun. Getting pushed off your fuel point by OKW 30 seconds in isn't fun, building abuse definitely isn't. The way I see it, if more people punished British for doing emplacements we wouldn't see them in the first place.

bofors is different though, that emplacement is in a weird spot where it creates situations that are require "too" much effort to counter. On the same coin, if it dies and a luches(or other vehicle) comes out. The brit player just lost the game.

I think the problem woth brace is it offers a HUGE buff to defense with no real downside. Unless the enemy vastly outplays you you will survive without loses, but will likley inflict bleed when they attack.

I think brace should inflict a manpower penalty (like soviet self repair) so its not a no brainer, so emplacments "bleed" if the enemy forces it on them. Counterplay with give and take.

I think brace should inflict a manpower penalty (like soviet self repair) so its not a no brainer, so emplacments "bleed" if the enemy forces it on them. Counterplay with give and take.

That's an interesting one actually. Although to some extent, a manpower drain is self-defeating since the point of brace is to prevent a substantial loss of manpower. I guess it would require some careful balancing to ensure that it's enough of a drain that the player is aware of it happening, but not so much that it would have cost the same to just replace the emplacement anyway (admittedly, the build time of a new emplacement is also a factor).

You're just underestimating Ostheer mortars. Build 2 of them and you'll counter all the brit army.
The method I use vs mortar pit or Bofors is to alternately use each of their barrage and attack ground. So when brace is over I always have a barrage ready to finish it off. Since it doesn't require a lot of micro, I can manage better the rest of the army.