December Balance Preview

Who need obers (t4 expansive elite 4model )
when IS (t0 cheap 5model standard infantery sqad)
are much better?

It's ok nerfing volks, but I really do think there must be another way other than delaying the passive healing...
The passive healing was meant to give mechanized builds some kind of decent form of healing that isn't a constant muni bleed, since okw healing is the only healing tied to a specific tier.
What about removing sight bonus, or reducing cooldownd bonus ?

the new healing mechanic from okw is so much fail:

you need to setup both first trucks...and need to tech this healing...its the most expansive and latest healing in game....why wtf?

Who need obers (t4 expansive elite 4model )
when IS (t0 cheap 5model standard infantery sqad)
are much better?

Obers are getting much cheaper, which was long overdue since their original price reflected their status before nerfs after nerfs and even more nerfs, and the fact that they came with a MG-34 which now you will have to purchase for muni, without the ability build caches, oh, and its muni price just got 33% more expensive. Taking away their RA bonuses earned after insanely high Vet requirements in totally unwarranted still.

Effective HPs ((HP x model) / RA)

Vet 3 Conscripts in DBP: 680 EHP
Vet 5 Obers in live 707 EHP
Vet 5 Obers in DBP 589 EHP (same as in live/DBH Vet 3, they lost their 20% RA bonus)

IIRC in live with their RA they had about as much effective HP than Vet 3 Cons... however once you get within 10 meters of them, all their RA bonuses disappear and they are again a squishy 320 EHP squad, as vulnerable as Wehrs Pioneers...

IS are finally getting nerfed in their Vet 0 RA bonuses which was the thing that broke most early play against the Brits, as IS would just auto-win against anything you throw at them in 90% of the case, to the extent that even relative cover was almost ineffective.

Obers are getting much cheaper, which was long overdue since their original price reflected their status before nerfs after nerfs and even more nerfs, and the fact that they came with a MG-34 which now you will have to purchase for muni, without the ability build caches, oh, and its muni price just got 33% more expensive. Taking away their RA bonuses earned after insanely high Vet requirements in totally unwarranted still.

Effective HPs ((HP x model) / RA)

Vet 3 Conscripts in DBP: 680 EHP
Vet 5 Obers in live 707 EHP
Vet 5 Obers in DBP 589 EHP (same as in live/DBH Vet 3, they lost their 20% RA bonus)

IIRC in live with their RA they had about as much effective HP than Vet 3 Cons... however once you get within 10 meters of them, all their RA bonuses disappear and they are again a squishy 320 EHP squad, as vulnerable as Wehrs Pioneers...

IS are finally getting nerfed in their Vet 0 RA bonuses which was the thing that broke most early play against the Brits, as IS would just auto-win against anything you throw at them in 90% of the case, to the extent that even relative cover was almost ineffective.

Thank you for this answer.

Was it fixed that IS can equip double vickers and schredd all axis infntery in sec?

Obers are getting much cheaper, which was long overdue since their original price reflected their status before nerfs after nerfs and even more nerfs, and the fact that they came with a MG-34 which now you will have to purchase for muni, without the ability build caches, oh, and its muni price just got 33% more expensive. Taking away their RA bonuses earned after insanely high Vet requirements in totally unwarranted still.

Effective HPs ((HP x model) / RA)

Vet 3 Conscripts in DBP: 680 EHP
Vet 5 Obers in live 707 EHP
Vet 5 Obers in DBP 589 EHP (same as in live/DBH Vet 3, they lost their 20% RA bonus)

IIRC in live with their RA they had about as much effective HP than Vet 3 Cons... however once you get within 10 meters of them, all their RA bonuses disappear and they are again a squishy 320 EHP squad, as vulnerable as Wehrs Pioneers...

IS are finally getting nerfed in their Vet 0 RA bonuses which was the thing that broke most early play against the Brits, as IS would just auto-win against anything you throw at them in 90% of the case, to the extent that even relative cover was almost ineffective.

Somehow when I do the same calculations, I get different results.

Vet3 Conscripts in DBP: 678
Vet5 Obers in live: 804
Vet5 Obers in DBP: 643

Obers = 4 * 80 / [0.7 (target_size) * 0.71 (vet3)]

Are you sure you're taking Ober Vet0 target size into account?

Normal faction veterancy works as follows:

Vet1: Threshold
Vet2: 2*Threshold
Vet3: 4*Threshold

OKW faction veterancy works as follows:

Vet1: Threshold
Vet2: 2*Threshold
Vet3: 4*Threshold
Vet4: 5*Threshold
Vet5: 6.5*Threshold

This means that it takes roughly similar amount of XP to get from Vet2 to Vet3 as it takes to get from Vet3 to Vet5. I wouldn't call going from Vet2 to Vet3 "insane". OKW units get their standard amount of combat bonuses as all other units from Vet1 to Vet3.

Speaking of Tommies / IS. Their effective HP (models x 80 / RA) is in DBP the following. Tommies retain their +10% RA bonus in cover.

Vet 0 4 x 80 / 0,9 = 355 EHP (390 eHP in cover)
Vet 0 5 x 80 / 0,9 = 445 EHP (490 EHP in cover) when bolstered
Vet 2 4 x 80 / 0,9 / 0,76 = 467 EHP (513 EHP in Cover)
Vet 2 5 x 80 / 0,9 /0.76 = 586 EHP (643 EHP in cover) when bolstered

As a reminder: Vet 5 Obers in DBP 589 EHP (same as in live/DBH Vet 3, they lost their 20% RA bonus)

This puts into perspective how Obers, a 340 MP unit coming after about 190 fuel worth of teching and accumating about 10 times as much veterency points against lesser opponents 'outscale', well, Tier 0 280 MP units with a minimal teching added.

It appears that Obers in DBP at Vet 4 will now be less resitant then Vet 2 bolstered Tommies in cover, which is everywhere btw by late game due to craters, even after the nerf to Tommy RA.

I am curious which unit was problematic with the VET 4 Obers 'outscaling' them. Because we all know Vet 4 Obers just grow on the trees and spammable.

Somehow when I do the same calculations, I get different results.

Vet3 Conscripts in DBP: 678
Vet5 Obers in live: 804
Vet5 Obers in DBP: 643

Obers = 4 * 80 / [0.7 (target_size) * 0.71 (vet3)]

Are you sure you're taking Ober Vet0 target size into account?

I did, not sure if the math went right though.

In any case, the point is that Obers are late game, tech, manpower and munition intensive infantry units that are hard countered by all vehicles, received a lot of nerfs in the past, lost their built in MG and are as vulnerable to wipes to explosions as ever. To reach Vet 4, they need to do an insane amount of killing against lesser foes. So leave their RA bonuses be, they worked for it, any more nerfs and the unit is borderline broken.

And most importantly, either Obers can stay in the frontline even when they see a massive blob and do some damage to it and disencourage blobbing, or there will be just more Volks counter-blobbing once even Vetted Obers cease to work effectively. Which option is better for gameplay?

With DBP, even after all Veterancy they are basically on the same spot durability-wise as what was supposed to be the lamest, cheapest infantry (Cons) by the time Obers first hit the field or UKF infantry in late game craters .... Obers that work as intended and are unique or their watered down version that is basically just as IS squad that also fires on the move?

Was spamming Obers ever really a thing? Was it ever a problem? Because of their AT defiency, they can never work alone. And especially, how can WFA armies retain their double BARs/BRENs as their only justification, ie OKW infantry that dodges bullets literally ceased to exists..?

Mortar pit seemed good vs Ost on Kholodny

In left side all things are good, maybe even cons

Who need obers (t4 expansive elite 4model )
when IS (t0 cheap 5model standard infantery sqad)
are much better?

Oh look, 340 elite ifnatry that are in t4, not in doc.

USF Infantry changes are subject to a change. The most important question we want answered is whether the changes make the faction more interesting to play as (and counter). If the answer is that it makes the game more boring, we revert changes and balance from there.



Yeah. The rationale is that when you use Smoke Raid, all units receive hold fire (which is on H). We could have given hold fire a non-standard hotkey, but trust us, it would feel awkward.

Smoke:
thats a decent way to look at it. If that is your goal I would suggest giving the Captain and Major smoke to balance out what is lost on rifles. That would also support more varied builds since you will have officers with say rangers paratroopers or pathfinders. LT still has smoke as well so captain not having it will make LT tech even more favored.

Captain:
The On Me change is much harder to micro, I think adding defensive or received accuracy bonuses to the target would be cool, even if it had a cost. Saving an at gun or MG from blobs would be a cool usage making him a defensive compared to the LT's offensive nature.

I think these two changes would make officers alot more core to USF playstyle. and interesting as a result.

I did, not sure if the math went right though.

In any case, the point is that Obers are late game, tech, manpower and munition intensive infantry units that are hard countered by all vehicles, received a lot of nerfs in the past, lost their built in MG and are as vulnerable to wipes to explosions as ever. To reach Vet 4, they need to do an insane amount of killing against lesser foes. So leave their RA bonuses be, they worked for it, any more nerfs and the unit is borderline broken.

And most importantly, either Obers can stay in the frontline even when they see a massive blob and do some damage to it and disencourage blobbing, or there will be just more Volks counter-blobbing once even Vetted Obers cease to work effectively. Which option is better for gameplay?

With DBP, even after all Veterancy they are basically on the same spot durability-wise as what was supposed to be the lamest, cheapest infantry (Cons) by the time Obers first hit the field or UKF infantry in late game craters .... Obers that work as intended and are unique or their watered down version that is basically just as IS squad that also fires on the move?

Was spamming Obers ever really a thing? Was it ever a problem? Because of their AT defiency, they can never work alone. And especially, how can WFA armies retain their double BARs/BRENs as their only justification, ie OKW infantry that dodges bullets literally ceased to exists..?

Piking the one thing cons are good and than compare them to Obers. Wow this post. Can you now compare the DPS? This would also be interesting.

Piking the one thing cons are good and than compare them to Obers. Wow this post. Can you now compare the DPS? This would also be interesting.

I missed the point when they changed cons cost tp match obersoldaten...and when mg34 stopped being a paid upgrade

Smoke:
thats a decent way to look at it. If that is your goal I would suggest giving the Captain and Major smoke to balance out what is lost on rifles. That would also support more varied builds since you will have officers with say rangers paratroopers or pathfinders. LT still has smoke as well so captain not having it will make LT tech even more favored.

Captain:
The On Me change is much harder to micro, I think adding defensive or received accuracy bonuses to the target would be cool, even if it had a cost. Saving an at gun or MG from blobs would be a cool usage making him a defensive compared to the LT's offensive nature.

I think these two changes would make officers alot more core to USF playstyle. and interesting as a result.

Officer smoke sounds like a good idea.

Oh look, 340 elite ifnatry that are in t4, not in doc.

300 elite infantry not 340, and T1 not T4, arriving at 30 sec. Oh. Are you sure you mean Penals?

I am still interested to hear what Allied infantry had issues of being "outscaled" by Vet 4 Obers that would justify the removal of their -20% RA at Vet 4.

Given the silence, I guess there is none.

300 elite infantry not 340, and T1 not T4, arriving at 30 sec. Oh. Are you sure you mean Penals?

I am still interested to hear what Allied infantry had issues of being "outscaled" by Vet 4 Obers that would justify the removal of their -20% RA at Vet 4.

Given the silence, I guess there is none.

you know the drill ignore the trolls

The sum of the infantry changes is that OKW elites no longer exist but (buffed) double BAR/Bren WFA mainlines the existences of which was rationalized by said, now non-existing OKW elite. OST never had one in the first place.

Since WFA armies can simply purchase extra DPS that is to be earned by OKW elites mostly by fighting and bleeding and preserving units (i.e. via veterancy bonuses), instead of relying on earning veterancy which is even less of an issue for replacement WFA mainlines since they can now earn Veterancy faster by feeding on OKW "elites" that now elite only in name but not in the abilities they gained.

Trouble is, WFA infantry never needed help in the first place.

WFA ruined the potential for EFA balance.

Brits ruined the potential for WFA and EFA balance.

Most major balance issues have originated from an EFA faction matching up with WFA or Brits.

The imbalances almost all surround fundamental game mechanics (commander system, limited territory points, frps) and faction design flaws (OKWs multiple overhauls without clear direction or coherency, limited WFA access to team weapons and other tools, emplacements and brace, weapon racks and tank crews).

There have only been a few instances where a unit, in and of itself, was problematic... and most of those instances were a direct result of trying to (re)balance said unit.

I gotta admit. 1.4 is looking good. Not sure about the crocodile though. It is getting some really harsh nerfs. Will the armor make that much of a difference? Haven't noticed it myself to be honest.

It's ok nerfing volks, but I really do think there must be another way other than delaying the passive healing...
The passive healing was meant to give mechanized builds some kind of decent form of healing that isn't a constant muni bleed, since okw healing is the only healing tied to a specific tier.
What about removing sight bonus, or reducing cooldownd bonus ?

Wait so you'd take combat nerfs over moving the passive healing? It's also worth pointing out that sturms do have the crates (albeit too expensive for constant use) and setting up a medhq too isn't that expensive and won't delay your game that much. I always backtech it for the healing and sometimes the frp when I go luchs. And in the long run, backteching puts you that much closer to a kt too.